Control Thistle in Pasture

[cakadu]

It is sad to see the thistles coming back as strong as they have what with having them almost gone prior to the drought. It was also unfortunate that the fellow we rented to had agreed to not overgraze, yet the year before the drought and the year of the drought he seriously overgrazed both years. Both years we had asked if he would take them out, which of course he never did. Now he has moved on and we are left with the aftermath and trying to get it under control.

I suppose we might consider using some sort of chemical on them, but for two reasons. #1 we just don't agree with the whole notion of chemicals and #2 if we use it on the thistles it will also take out any other broad leaf species, including the clovers that were so laboriously planted. We want the effects of the clover moreso than that of the chemicals, so I guess we are caught between the proverbial rock and hard place.

[coppertop]

Just yesterday a friend and I were discussing the use of all types of chemicals, and we came to the conclusion that we would need to be in a glass bubble to avoid any contact with chemicals.

Laundry soaps, household cleaners,additives in the food we eat etc., are so prevalent that it's little wonder that there are so many people developing allergies to food, and their environment !!

I use roundup in areas of the house yard where I want to completely kill out vegetation, and I have had thistles sprayed with Grazon in past years but haven't done so this year.

The air we breathe, and the water that sustains us are two areas that all of us need to be more concerned about, particularly now when things are booming like they are here in AB.

[grassfarmer]

Cakadu, Are your thistles really getting noticably worse or are you just trying to control them because they look unsightly? If as you say you have reduced past overgrazing that alone should increase competition on the thistles and start to lead to their decline. Do you have gophers or moles? the fastest I have ever seen thistles spread is on fields that are overrun with gophers - I can think of a couple of fields I drive past occasionally that have gone from 2% thistle cover to 60% cover in a couple of years.

I'm with you on the spray killing broadleaves - legumes in particular. My place here had only a few tiny overgrazed white clover plants for legumes on it when I bought it but now has alfalfa, red clover, alsike clover, white clover, yellow sweet clover, Kura clover, cicer milk vetch, American vetch. Of these I only seeded the cicer milk vetch and kura clover. It truly is remarkable what can appear as a result of simple grass management - just cattle, electric fences, water, a grazing plan and time.

How bad would my thistles need to be before it justified spraying them and killing this amount of legumes and setting back this much progress?

[cakadu]

Grassfarmer, the gophers here have gotten relatively bad again - despite my spouse and dogs making a dent in them. About 10 years ago we had a resident badger here because of the gopher population. Then we got two years of absolute downpours - almost 300% of normal rainfall. The watertable was at ground level so the gophers were gone and consequently so did the badger move out. Since then, he gophers have slowly come back and the badger hasn't.

An interesting comment - how would the gophers spread more? I have no idea how that would happen.

Coppertop - I am not against chemicals entirely and I agree with you - there is no way we can get away from them. I wonder just how much this whole "anti-bacterial" phenomenon is good for us as we need some of these bugs around to help us keep immune. I sometimes joke with my urban friends that when it comes to an outbreak of something, those of us on the farm will be able to outlast them because we are in contact with many things in a day.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that since this obsession with clean and anti-bacterial started, that more of us - particularly children - are continually getting sick? Seems to me that we weren't as sick when we were kids.

The best disinfectant around is still bleach. Not the kindest on the environment, but it works and it definitely isn't a high-falutin' type of cleaner.

[coppertop]

vinegar is an excellent disenfectant, I use it around the house, on cutting boards, counter tops etc.

I agree that it does seem that certain flu bugs really knock people off their feet. I am thinking that the farming community can't afford to be sick so maybe we just tough it out whenever we do feel out or sorts.

[Smithy]

Interesting that vinegar came up in this thread as my daughter uses it to kill thistle around her yard. It isn't as effective as roundup and seems to take several applications to really knock it down but she has little kids and pets and it is much safer.

[sagewood]

Now, the talk about vinegar and thistles has me interested. Does your daughter just spray straight vinegar on the thistles, or does she cut them first and then dribble the vinegar down the stems, or what is her process and how many times do you need to spray with vinegar--also, does it have any affect on the ground, i.e. hard to grow grass back etc..???

[GreenValley]

Couple years ago been tried diesel fuel spray on thistle, amazing to me is that thistle would turn black in few days or start wilt couple hours with sunny heat on. But it didn't effective as next year as same spot I have sprayed with diesel fuel, it came back same as before even not less density. Thanks cowman for info regards on Tordon 22K. Recently purchase on that one, sprayed along corral pens and all of corral pens with Tordon 22K. Been talk with Dow rep, say suggest 100 feet buffer zone for river on pasture to spray with either Tordon or Grazon. Because it will shed to river when heavy rain. They suggest me other brand name Restore, checking Alberta Chemical Manual Guide but it not there, so it either old or new. Saying can spray thistle as close to river edge. But use caution when windy so it will not wind chemical to river. Dow rep saying best choice spray for Tordon 22K is in June when growing activity is best. Fall application is ok but best in June. I have spray on corral with Tordon 22K yesterday to experiment on what happen next year. Maybe my option is best time wait for raining season start and that time start mowing thistle. I have seen raining season start middle of June till middle of July. I havn't try that one, will try next year when start really rain hard like 1 inch each day perfect timing to mow. Vinger application on thistle, recently I had on my mind but will work? Someone saying here has work. I would be interest if more information in vinger application and what result in follow year.

[Smithy]

My daughter just sprays vinegar (she uses the stronger pickling stuff) right on the leaves and tries to get it sort of into the middle. It might be more effective if it was mowed first.

[sagewood]

So for next year I believe I will use some vinegar spray especially on the areas near the creek and wet lands--with all chemicals one must stay back a good distance from any water, but vinegar should not do any harm to the ecosystem--especially in the small quantities that would be used to spot spray the evil thistles who like to live next to the water...we must have this conversation again this time next year to see if any of our 'home-made' fixes actually worked and if so for how long they were effective. Diesel will kill just about anything for a little while, however, I don't like the idea of it being in the soil in any large quantities--the environmental thing is a concern if one ever wanted to sell the farm...or for the next generation to sell or whatever...petroleum products get a bad rap from the money lenders, the environmentalist and just about everyone when they get into the soil..

[cowman]

GreenValley: Restore is a very new product just released this spring...which is why it is not in the "blue book". Restore is actually 24D and "Milestone" in a tank mix. Milestone is the brand name for the herbicide aminopyralid. Ten liters of "Milestone" is $1200...but only 117 ml/acre.
Your Dow guy is right about Tordon 22K and Grazeon...30 meters from water. It will move in the soil. He gave you some misinformation about Restore/Milestone...right now it too has a restriction of 30 meters, although they are trying to get that reduced or eliminated. Aminopyralid breaks down in water within four hours, picloram(Tordon) doesn't.
Incidently Dow has test plots at Nisku and Leduc for common tansy and Aminopyralid is about the best I have ever seen. Also impressive on tall buttercup.