ethanol and distillers grain?

[cowman]

The bio fuel revolution is probably going to change just about every aspect of how we do agriculture.
If the grain/oilseed markets remain strong there is going to be a lot less feed grain available for feeding cattle and hogs? Distillers grain can replace about 35% of a steers diet and less in hogs. I would think there could be quite a cost in drying down distillers grain...so fed wet might be most economical?
I wonder how this whole thing might change the livestock sector, especially cattle as probably a lot more pasture,hayland, and silage land will go back into crop production?
I wonder if higher feed grain prices will dictate cattle grow out more on grass...or maybe even finish on grass?
Now personally I think this is a good thing? Get our livestock numbers back into a more balanced position where we don't have to rely on exports?
Of course there will be winners and losers. I would think feedlots might have a hard time adjusting and obviously if the cow herd is reduced, purebred breeders would have a smaller market?...But overall I think it is a very good thing for the farmers in Canada? Opinions?

[grassfarmer]

You highlight two important sides of the ethanol debate Cowman. First of all let me say that I think the whole ethanol deal is bogus, it's certainly not based on "sound science". I can't understand why grain farmers are getting excited about it as the factors that have been holding down grain prices for the last 10 years will apply to ethanol as well. Grain prices have been poor not because there was no demand for it but because too many input suppliers and processors had their fingers in the pie and were able to squeeze producer price down to below production cost. It is clear the Government subsidies are attracting a lot of big companies into ethanol - it must look good to attract the Carlyle group who are used to the highly lucrative market of arms dealing. If you look at the history you can predict how fertiliser, machinery, seed and other associated costs will sky rocket to capture any price increases in the grains sector.

On the other hand you raise a better idea - getting more grass production into the beef sector. This is truly a worthy goal as it is environmentally friendly and does something to counter the excess use of fossil fuels rather than to speed up the race. If we decide to plough marginal grain land again and return it to grain instead of grass we are making a big mistake. Imagine the huge potential to background more cattle on grass in the northern and western parts of the province particularly, with all the benefits of putting more income into rural communities, removing thousands of cattle from the Bow/Oldman river basins. A bonus of this change would be that you could produce grassfed cattle that would fill niche markets around the world rather than trying to produce beef cheaper than the Americans to sell into their market.

One question that I haven't enough information on is the feed value of the residue. Does processing grain for ethanol produce a nutritionally different product than distilling it for whiskey? We used lots of distillers by- products in Scotland and found it a most useful feed. There is talk here that the distillers residue isn't worth much to feed cattle and I don't know if that is true or not.

[rkaiser]

I'm hearing that it will make darn good cow feed, and basically background ration for feeders.

So cowman - any thoughts about those good big cows to go along with this thread? Seems to me that those big boned cattle that come off the cows at 700 pounds and need to be hit hard with barley from there on to finish even close to 1500 pounds might be a thing of the past.

[cowman]

Randy: You are probably right! Its a different world...without a doubt.
I've never had a problem with going with the flow. Why maybe that old Hereford cow might even make a comeback!
And to tell you the truth...I really liked them...born and raised on Herefords.

[grassfarmer]

If it's like the stuff we had in Scotland it's way too high protein for a bulk feed Randy. There it was either completely dehydrated and sold as a protein pellet to feed along with forage(would be expensive feed here given the cost of energy needed to dry it)
The other form which we used occasionally was to buy partly dehydrated (I think it was still around 70% moisture, mix in dried beet pulp pellets at about 15% and ensile the mixture. This was a messy job but produced an excellent complete feed for fattening on an ad lib basis.

[Horse]

I still remember when strs were run to 3and4yr olds Nice shorthorns and blk angus weighing 12/1400#.
The question is can we compete with south american or new zeland beef in the grass fed market?

[grassfarmer]

Horse, Your question applies to grainfed cattle also. Can we compete with South American beef on what, price? why do we always look to produce the cheapest possible? why not produce the best possible? The image of steers grazing pasture with the Rockies behind them could be the best beef marketing image in the world. Instead we seem focussed on being cheaper than the US producers. Why not go out and look for customers wanting top quality beef that are prepared to pay extra for it? We can't compete with South America on labour costs or land costs but we could produce to a higher, better verified standard. Of course to change direction we would need different people to be processing the cattle than we have now - US packers have no interest in promoting Canadian beef.
As far as the genetics go, there are beef cattle out there that will fatten off grass at 17-24 months comfortably at 12-1300lbs. Takes management though, of both cattle and grass.

[grassfarmer]

I should add Horse that cost of gain on the grassfed cattle can be half what it costs in the feedlot with even $3 barley.

[cowman]

Randys comments got me thinking...I guess we all know what the exotic invasion did for the cattle business in the 80s and 90s? Lets face it if you wanted to make the top buck then you crossbred with Chars, Sims, Limos? The system wanted a big calf that could be hit hard with barley and finish right around one year old? I think it was a good system...for the times and the economics?
Now in todays world, with very poor calf prices and rising input costs...that system just doesn't work all that well?
I remember going to a pasture seminar type thing in 2002 and the speaker asking how many guys in the early ninties had big exotic cows, calved in Jan./Feb, creep fed...did everything possible to hit that 800 lb. calf by fall? When only a few hands went up he laughed and said "Come on be truthful, we all did!" And I guess he was right!
But it was a good time to be in the cow/calf business...at least moneywise!
With a falling profit picture, everyone who wanted to survive, moved into this lower cost system we have today...and I would suggest it might get tougher!
The cow that made you the most money in 1992, won't today. Who knows what kind of cow will be needed in 2012?
If you look at the trend it very well might be the type of cow Randy or grassfarmer prefer?
I wonder if there will be a place for the Chars, Sims, Limos? They certainly have been falling out of favor the last few years? Its all Angus now...and although that is what we are almost exclusively using(the last char bull left this summer)...I've never really liked Angus! And lets face it some of these angus are getting as big as the exotics!
Its a different world and its still changing. The commercial cattleman will either adapt or quit.

[Horse]

Grassfarmer I think we marketed Bly fed beef not just beef as you can get beef anywhere I personaly dont like corn fed beef but I guess it is what you are used to, so if we lose the bly fed How do we market grass fed to a world of grass fed beef when the rest of the world has an advantage in the grass department.
Cowman you are right the only diference between angus and exotic is the color. I have long advocated we should downsize our cattle and put more #on grass to solve a lot of the over production problems but the big feeder and there fore the packers like the large carcas that fits the factory type farming that is killing all of us small producers. Not that I care that much anymore as I am at least semi retired but I would like to see a chance for some of the younger people trying to get the [GOOD LIFE} Most of them will try for a while and then figure it out that all they are doing is spending thier wages and thier youth for the sake of cheap food and give up.

[rkaiser]

I would like to say, as I always do, that it is the type of cattle and not the breeds that determine the end product. I will agree with you Horse, that barley fed is what sets Canadian beef apart, and I personally prefer grain finished product. However, how we get the cattle there is the key. To take a large framed beef animal and finish it at a preferred size and age; long feeding of grain was/is essential. Using lower quality forages and then putting some barley finish on an animal is and will be the most economical way to continue our barley fed advantage. This will require a "type" of cattle. Just because our cattle fit that bill right now, does not make them the "only" right choice. It did not take the Angus or Hereford breeds long to work in the system that cowman talked of.

The only problem with changing a breed to fit a system is time. Even if a new Simmi- Angus- or Simmi/Angus bull has all the right stuff for the new system, his pedigree will include generations of cattle that don't. How many generations of breeding will it truly take to make that bull work in a high roughage, short finish situation.

All of the mainstream breeds have been moving to moderation for a few years now, but it will take many more to be where breeds like Welsh Blacks, Galloways, Luings, and many more breeds have been for generations.

Boy I was out to lunch on that distillers grain thing. Is all of the by product from Ethanol and Bio diesel this high protein matter?

[grassfarmer]

Why does Canada feeding their cattle grain or barley set them apart? Beef producers in South America, Australia and Europe all feed cattle on high grain rations some based on barley.(there may be more areas these are the ones I know of) "Barley beef" (ad-lib barley plus a protein supplement plus a bit of wheat straw to keep the stomach turning) has been a production system used in the UK since the 1960s.

I have found an analysis on corn derived stillage below. I don't know how this compares to other grain crops stillage.

(100% dry matter basis)

Crude protein 28 to 30%
Oil 8 to 12%
ADF 18%
NDF 44%
Calcium 0.15%
Phosphorous 0.52 to 0.78%
TDN 88%

[Willowcreek]

grassfarmer quote: {"Why not go out and look for customers wanting top quality beef that are prepared to pay extra for it? We can't compete with South America on labour costs or land costs but we could produce to a higher, better verified standard."}

grassfarmer, You are very correct in your thinking- but in order to do so you need your product to have an identity...And as long as the Multinationals that have controled the beef industry have their way, they want it all to be generic beef so they can throw in that cheap South American, Mexican, wherever beef and keep the price down...

That is the reason cattle producers in the US want to have M-COOL...US beef has a good reputation/and is known as a quality product- but cannot compete with the low production costs of those other areas without being identified...

Canadian beef could/would do very well- but right now it has no identity--very few even know there is Canadian beef, as for the past 12 years its mostly all been passed off as US product...

[cowman]

Not quite sure how to read your numbers on corn silage grassfarmer?
In the Alberta Beef Herd management book they have corn silage listed at 10.2% protein and ADF at 31.7? Now this is at 74.7% moisture so I assume on a dry basis explains the higher protein numbers?
Incidently barley silage is listed at 12.4% protein, ADF at 30.1 at 62.7% moisture.

[grassfarmer]

My figures were not for corn silage Cowman they were for corn stillage, or distillers grains the byproduct of ethanol production.