Foraging ability

[whiteface]

Fair and square, grassfarmer, it sure didn't pay me enough to keep doing it and rather than continue beating my head against the wall, I let evolution take over. Decided to simply go with the flow and the majority rule was "we want a place to live, and then maybe, just maybe, after we've afforded all our toys, we'll see if there's any left over for that "eating experience" you all keep talking about." I keep telling you, food is the first to go when normal consumers need to cut their own costs (like when their rent and fuel goes up!)
The real estate wave has been phenomenal to say the least and I don't doubt for one second, Wilson, that what goes up can't be shot down. Give me just a whisper more credit than that. I still remember sitting in my truck just before the twin towers went down looking at my herd and listening to a CALGARY radio station (not even some farmer station but a HIP-HOP station...now you all know what I dance to!) and the dee-jay going on and on about the windfall of cash flowing into cattle producers hands. God how that felt good!
And then...
My favorite expression...
JENGA!
The States decide to go on a man-hunt and make everybody nervous about opening their wallets and then...
BSE shows up only 8 months later and the world as all cattle producers knew it changed. Completely, totally, permanently...
And how many of you sold out when prices were phenomenal...
I didn't either, but sure as hell got smarter real fast as I watched in angst neighbor after neighbor going down. Still watching it, and like you grassfarmer, trying to save a few of my favorites from total bankruptcy, teaching them how to use their farms for anything other than farming.
I didn't go bankrupt, I continued doing what I have always done, given the consumer what they demanded...houses, no one wants live cattle and I even did and still do pretty darn well as far as individual prices of my breeding stock and embryo and semen exports go.
Just that the land, taxes and interest rates did pretty darn better and I wasn't really in the mood to move my family to the moon just to lower the biggest costs, my land and interest payments.
Anyway, all been said before. I can still assure you, Wilson that greed is not the deciding factor, the mental stability of my family is and when the gravy train of real estate is done in Alberta, it'll be time for something else. We talk quite a bit about time to cash out, just like I "should have" called the truck and sold everything that day that hip-hop station went on and on about now is the time to be a cattle farmer. Then was, now ain't.
I will keep giving the consumer what they ask for, that I believe is the mindset of an entreprenuer, not to tell consumers what they "should" want. That ain't an entreprenuer, that's a bully (or an American! LOL!)
If you guys got enough customers to bring in a buck or two and so few amenities that your costs are zilch, my hat is off to you and I mean that sincerely.
I still like beef and still need some guys to produce it.
Thank you to those who are and can afford to do so. I can't. Mine are now pets that I thoroughly enjoy, and life has since gotten a whole lot better since I was able to recognize what can and cannot be done. Thanks for reading and have a good day all!

[cswilson]

Each to our own Utopia I guess.

[cowman]

CSWilson stated it very well with his last statement!
Everyone of us has to live with the decisions we make in regard to our own personal decisions?
Bottom line is this: whatever floats your boat!
I do understand where whiteface is coming from...and believe me...several times I have thought...to hell with this!
I like to think of myself as a savy businessman...who can go with the flow! And in most cases...I do!
Maybe I am bent or something...but I have this little "Ag thing" that limits me? Probably all the BS I grew up with?
But bottom line is this: As long as I'm alive I will be raising cattle. No one will be able to out-compete me because I don't even care if I lose money!...Now obviously I would maybe like to make some money...but I won't be run out of this business, no matter what!
Now what can an idiot like me do? Well I can say to hell with it, damn the torpedos, and I'll go full steam ahead, or I can say...I'll change, try to hang in there, try to keep this thing profitable? I have pretty deep pockets...I only have to outlast so many people.
Not pretty...but the truth?

[grassfarmer]

Blackjack I didn't understand your post - are you saying that only by being margin players with ever increasing numbers can we survive? I would dispute that totally, it hasn't helped producers of any other commodity become rich. High margin, smaller turnover however may be the future especially given the constraints of rising land values. You don't think that being a low cost producer is important?

Cswilson, I've looked at Ranchers.net a few times and think it is an appalling site - compared to Agriville it is nothing but trading insults and abusing other people. The photos of the participants at their hillbilly rendezvous are rather scary, looks like they tied their mules up out back! They don't look to me like people on the cutting edge of American agriculture. If you want to look at photos of Luings go to my website luingcattle.com.

[cswilson]

There's some pretty good stock people over on ranchers.net you must of wandered in to the the politics or bull session lol. At least they are ranchers making their living off cattle and don't whine quite as much as some.

[kpb]

grassfarmer, you and I have had this conversation in the past but I think it bears repeating. Although margins are apparently quite high in the direct market, the problem that I see is that your overall gross dollars realized are not.

It's great to net out big bucks per animal or per pound by grassing your cattle, then selling privately, but it's your bottom line gross return that really matters. If you run 100 cattle and realize an annual net in your pocket of $400 per animal after all expenses--which I think is very high--you are going to have $40,000 at the end of the day. Well I sure don't know your circumstances and don't need to but I can tell you that $40,000 around here just won't cut it. Hell, I've got 5 kids and their hockey expenses are close to 10% of that. My land taxes eat up more than another 15% and that's just off the top of my head.

Now this year we lost a little on the grassers as I outlined earlier. But last year we made a lot, a whole lot more than $40,000 and that's just one aspect of the ranch. I think, with what we have invested in this operation, that we are entitled to a return that is comparable to other business ventures that we could put the equivalant amount of money into and that is, generally, what we strive to make.

I think you know a lot about direct marketing, based on your previous posts, and I know next to nothing about it. But when we have discussed this previously I believe you said that the number of animals you market this way are actually fairly small--maybe 25 or less??? To my way of thinking I cannot generate enough gross dollars from this to support my efforts. And I don't know how a person can grow this market to a size that would generate a liveable return. On the other hand I can hold grassers for four months and, on average, make $30,000 or so. And also have the upside potential of a big payoff one or two years in 10. And still have the basic herd and backgrounding ends. That's why, I guess, that a fast turnover, lower margin operation is what most big, successful cattlemen have.

kpb

[grassfarmer]

kpb, As you say we have had this conversation before. I think I've said before that we are small just now because we are building the business. You could make it whatever size you want. I think for our operation where we are heading towards being an all pedigree outfit selling surplus females for breeding plus some bulls the direct marketing is quite a nice fit. We could potentially use the 80% of our male calves and any heifers not good enough for breeding and it would make a substantial contribution to our income without us becoming full time butchers or beef retailers which I have no desire to do.
I see you as being on the other side of the fence, where you are a margin operator and that is fine too if it works for you - but don't expect to be able to produce grassfed steers on an industrial or feedlot style scale and expect the premiums to remain. It is only because it is not easy to do on an industrial scale that there are premiums available. Each to their own.

[blackjack]

...yes grassfarmer i agree it is very important to be a low cost producer...but i am alot in the same line as kpb in that i want a reasonable return on my investments...i believe you are right in that the future looks bleak if your a marginal producer...we can all look at the hog industry as an example and they still have an export market...but they still say they are headed for a wreck cause of future grain prices...but again it all comes down govt policies if they decide to subsidize and that if i have a large tract of land or a large number of cows ...that counteracts against guys like yourself that want to be more self sufficient than your competition...the playing field is not fair and i truly do believe the bigger the player has more options cause there is a good chance they help make the rules...

[grassfarmer]

blackjack, if it's the subsidy game you want to play fair enough - bigger is better. But I thought you were all free market capitalists here that hated Government intervention or subsidised agriculture? Problem is in reality the subsidies producers receive are bid into input costs or deducted from the price you receive for your produce and you are no further ahead. I've played that game in Europe though and cashed out my chips at a good valuation, moved here to cheaper land and have some chips left over for off farm investment. It's easy to make more money from off farm investments than it is on farm, I don't know why more producers don't consider it for a "diversification" project.
The real winners in subsidised agriculture in the UK were blatant crooks - dealer type folks who cheated and falsified cattle identities,ages and subsidy claims throughout the BSE crisis - they are so far ahead now it's unreal. And they say crime never pays!

[blackjack]

...hard to disagree with what you say grassfarmer...i know the abp likes to promote this free market type of system but in reality ever since i can remember from the eighties(when we used to fatten cattle) to the present there has always been some kind of program to offset the poor prices...but it seemed if you worked hard we could keep up to the real wages what some people outside our industry like to call it...i know you don't use conventional fertilizer for example but look how it zoomed right back up and natural gas hardly moved...the cattle business has always been somewhat tough but as kpb has said in other posts...the risk is getting a whole alot more than the reward...

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I'm coming into this thread a little late, but wanted to toss a couple comments in on breed foraging.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea of certain breeds having better foraging abilities, but rather with the personal selections of the owner. My Shorthorns and ShorthornX are either from my own stock, or stock purchased from a purebred operator out of Gronlid who roughs his livestock out. I've also got some Angus and some Angus/Hereford cross cows from an old pasture manager out of Choiceland who roughs his stock. Thrown into the mix are some Angus, AngusX and Simm animals from a ranch in Southern Alberta who don't rough their animals out.

I maintain my feeders out in the pastures until a couple weeks before calving season, and even when the feeders are full, the stock thats been roughed their whole lives, irregardless of breed, are eyeballs to snowbanks trying to find that last grass blade that may have been left behind.

The other critters that had a softer life in that warm Southern Alberta environment aren't any harder keeping, don't seem to be any thinner skinned, but they won't stoop to foraging in snowbanks. They'll be the first complain when the feeders start to run dry and the first to hang their heads in the feeders when the bales get put in.

Rod

[rkaiser]

Good points Rod. Kit Faro and others talk of matching cattle to the environment, but as the herders and the fence putter uppers, we control their environment. There are breeds "in general" that can handle situations like you speak of, but selection within any breed and selection of environment will create the cattle that fit.

The part that I like about steering the cattle and the environment toward a more natural forage based approach is the bonus we receive in fertility and carcass merit. Whether grass finished or grass fed and topped up with a little barley at the end, these cattle work in my belly and am sure that many housewives who had a choice would agree.