Cresrud--Tysons New Partner

[Willowcreek]

Heres a website that will give you the info on Tysons new partner..You should take a look at this and then tell me Tyson etal isn't trying to vertically integrate the global cattle industry...Do you think they will really give a diddle about Canadian or US cattlemen in a few years when they're no longer needed? Not if they can ship their generic falsely labeled beef in here cheaper....

I just wonder how much of this corporate buy in was done with Canadian BSE disaster payments?

http://www.worldbeefeforum.beeplog.com/

[rkaiser]

Not only the disaster payments but the money that Rcalf helped put in their pockets by yapping about a closed border and it's affect on American cattle prices. While Cargill and Tyson continue to enjoy and manipulate any and all border issues and reap the ONLY rewards. American producers have gained virtually nothing from the closed border you old fool.

You know Oldtimer - I've been wanting to ask you for a while now. How much do you and the Rcalf dodo's claim that the closed border propped up your cattle prices? Do you even realise - you crusty old fart - that the border was only closed for a matter of a few months. For the rest of this BSE fiasco - your buddies at Tyson and Cargill have been stealing Canadian cattle and pumping the boxes south to your customers. AND - if it would not have come from us - it would and will come from some other trap line that Cargill and Tyson have, or are in the process of setting out.

The border is not the issue Dipbrain - never has been - except for the fact that you and the R laugh gang have been helping Cargill and Tyson by deflecting the attention from their **** job with your ridiculous - SAVE AMERICAN LIVES - BS.

You are an amazing critter Oldtimer - Your knowledge of the industry seems to grow a tiny bit from time to time due to reading the threads here on good old Canunkleville, but your blindassed protectionist views stop you from seeing the big picture even when you post articles like the one you just posted here.

Sorry for the name calling cowman and the rest of you Canadian gentlemen-----

[Willowcreek]

rKaiser- you must need the same medication that old ~SH~ on ranchers is on...You need to get that prescription checked if all you can do is name call- cause the pills ain't working...

[rkaiser]

You are right Oldtimer - the name calling is as uncalled for as the BS you call "industry intelligence" on your part.

Read the post again and substitute "sweet old man" for every name I called you. Easier than changing the whole thing now.

[Willowcreek]

Just go have a couple toddies- makes things look better....

But that is interesting who Tyson is teaming with--brings back memories- Tyson, Clintons, Soros, Espy-- all thieves and all thicker than thieves...And thats who will end up owning the worlds cattle industry....

[rkaiser]

Okay - I will agree with that - after a couple Tylenol - no toddies tonight - big cattle show day tomorrow.

Now if only I could get you to agree that Canadian ranchers are not the enemy nor do they have any part in ruining the American ranchers livelihood. AND that the propaganda that Rcalf pumps out about cherry picked BSE science is only feeding the border manipulation issues that Cargill and Tyson have figured out completely in their favour. --- Including the testing issue that holds not only Canadian cattle but North American cattle captive in their opportunistic world.

[Willowcreek]

Well kaiser- I think one of the big dividing points between US and Canadian cattlemen might be a moot point pretty soon--as I look for the M-COOL law to be fasttracked in the next few weeks if not sooner...That will at least give US cattleman an identity to their product and an ability to compete with these upcoming cheap Argentine imports and the cheaper imports from all over the world.....

[cowman]

I'm not sure what the problem is with this joint venture? Don't we basically do the same thing here?
Doesn't Cargill/Tyson feed cattle and slaughter them now? In Canada and the USA?
I actually don't understand this. A private company producing a product and selling it...how is that evil? Aren't all the "mini marketers" on here doing the same thing...on a smaller scale?
If Cargill can raise a calf cheaper than me...well good for them? Isn't that how a free enterprize system works?
The Canadian government has always interfered in the domestic market. If the price gets too high in comes the imports, food safety or not...and down go a few more Canadian cattle producers!
I think it is important to realize that your federal government is really not all that concerned about farmers in this country? In the big picture they are very insignificant and actually a nuisance!

[farmers_son]

Willowcreek: I checked out Cresud’s web page at:

http://www.cresud.com.ar/

I would thank you for bringing Cresud to our attention. I would recommend everyone to visit this website and see the future of the cattle business. Now what I mean by that is this outfit seems to have its act together. Clear business plan including business plans for each production unit. Economies of scale, professional management, publicly traded. If anyone here has any vision of the Argentina beef producer as backward third world gaucho out on the pampas this web site will be an eye opener.

This web site gives us one view of the future of the cattle industry. And like Ebenezer Scrooge who was given the gift of three visits in order to be convinced to change this web site may be just the first visit. It will no doubt take a couple of more ghosts to get producers to actually change. A few producers like Willowcreek are too old to change and are doomed to wear the chains of protectionism they have forged during their lifetime as they, like Bob Marley, will have no other fate than to wail at R-Calf meetings.

Change is coming folks, it is either get on the bus or get out of the way. North American, and I mean that not Canadian or American, producers need to get their act together. Either we will learn to stop bickering and get along, form alliances with our natural and obvious counterparts or we will fall by the way side. Willowcreek thinks MCOOL is the shield that will save him and others like him from change which is what R-Calf is really fighting about. However change is inevitable and will not go away just like the Canadian producer will not go away and for that matter Argentina and South America is here to stay too.

On an individual basis it is time for me to get out my business plan and touch it up a little after seeing what Cresud has. And I for one do have a written business plan, you cannot farm without it any more whether you are a family farm like me or a public corporation like Cresud.

[rkaiser]

Great post farmer-son, you are a true Canadian Gentleman. Would that business plan have room for another look at the BIG C producer ownership idea? We are presenting, once again, to the Provincial and Federal governments due to the ever revolving door in those institutions, and will obviously need ranchers on side to make any headway. Thus our previous attempts to side with ABP. I know that the BSE testing issue has always been our thorn in their side and am not so naive as to believe that testing alone will change the way Canada goes about the beef business.

Testing is part of BIG C's business plan --- always has been. I think it could set our model apart from Cargill and Tyson enough to give us a jump start in the further processing area that will be a tough nut to crack. The war chest is full, and all new startup's are struggling. Something needs to be done to set these new plants apart and give them even 5% of the advantage given to Cargill and Tyson in Canada over the years.

I will read the Cresrud page farmer-son. When we have completed our newest proposal that we are taking to the provincial Ag minister, will you read it without the Cam Ostercamp bias that has built over the years in the gang camp at ABP?

By the way - wonderful description of Oldtimer and his Rcalf group. Made a point without the redneck emotion that finds it's way into my fingers.

[northfarmer]

I have checked out the site, and toured Argentina a few years back. The opportunities there are immense for this type of coordinated professional activity.

They are structured as a REIT, real estate income trust.....this is the form of trust that will continue exist even in Canada after the trust law changes promted by Flaherty. Not sure if it would be applicable to farm land and an integrates cattle/agricultureal business in it current legislative form but is a form by which the income can be distrubuted to shareholders before tax.

This could be a format of investment from current producers to build value chains that integrate production into processing and downstream marketing of the products. This of course requires a relinquishing of the many individual freedoms to make decisions that many farmers and ranchers relish, but could be a means to offer direct particiapation in the value chains we so dearly desire, at least I would. IN doing the scale of these activity could be large enough to offer economies of scale and be competitive yet small enough to exploit higher margin niche markets.

Being the market contrarian that I am, we are currently building a cattle business that will compliment our large scale grain farm and have recently reorgainzed out business seperatating the two entities into a corporate structure. Our current business plan calls for a 400 to 500 cow/calf herd (we are half that size now)with future backgrounding activities in the plan. We would like to seek out partnerships to to take these cattle to finish and beyond. would love to do this with like minded producers building into the future.

Excellent points f/s and rk.....I am not looking back, nothing to gain by that except the lessons of the past...just moving forward, we need to get our own organized and well thought out agenda on the table and enough of this asskicking we are getting by the few that countrol the market....the big guys have a divide and conquer strategy going on...we need to put them aside and promote our own selfish agenda....from the producers perspective....

[cowman]

That sure is one big outfit! 388,000 owned hectares, 160,000 leased hectares, 94,000 head of cattle! Not sure but I think a hectare is 2.47 acres so would translate into about 960,000 owned acres, 395,000 leased acres!
One thing you have to say about Cargill...they know how to build business links and capture every penny in a product!...oh sorry, I forgot...it is sacriledge to say anything good about a packer!

[farmers_son]

Cowman: Yes, Cargill does know how to build business links and capture every penny in a product as you point out. Some of those pennies should have been ours.

Cargill will not pay us any more for our live cattle than they have to. The key for livestock producers is to be able to "demand" our fair share. That would give new meaning to the phrase supply and demand.

The best way to demand fair payment is to have alternative markets for our live cattle. Since Cargill and Tyson are not going to compete with one another for our live cattle without being forced to then it would seem that we may need to create our own alternative market. As rkaiser points out, groups within Alberta have been advocating just such a thing for some time now.

I read your thread in Rural Issues about whether future farm managers need to have different expertise. It could be that quite a few primary lack a sufficient comfort level with moving up the value chain in order to demand their fair share of the consumer food dollar. Perhaps the benefits of more education and different experiences will not be seen at the primary production level, rather in the ability to be comfortable being part of the food chain beyond the farm gate.

Reading between the lines, it is my impression that Cresrud has attracted just such a team of people with that expertise and they are putting it to their advantage. How much longer the Willowcreeks and other such protectionists can survive in a cattle industry along side this new talent is debateable but I think their days are numbered.

I would suggest that any country's real competitive advantage in raising cattle is not their climate, or their cattle or their packing plants; it is their people. Even Cargill is just an organization consisting of people with resources. Those resources can be duplicated and other passionate, educated people could do what they do, only better.

[cowman]

And I might suggest to you farmers son, the people who own Cargill probably understand very well where they are going and why they are going there? In fact the so called "expertise" are basically the hired help?
I'm not saying a group of like minded souls can't come together to solve a problem. I am not against the BIG C concept...in fact the boy is a member and thinks strongly along those lines(we disagree at times!)!
My real problem is I know a thing or two about the packing business(not much...(maybe enough to be dangerous) and I know it is not a business for the faint hearted or dreamers! And quite frankly...a lot of the schemes I've heard...are hopeless dreamers!
At the end of the day, it is our own dollar we choose to invest? Be very careful how you choose to invest!
There is a sucker born every minute...and someone just waiting to take their money! Be very sure, where your investment dollar is going.
I think you probably have a pretty good grasp of how things work...but be careful...you might get caught in a situation where you are playing out of your league?

[farmers_son]

I agree with those comments. Especially being careful about investing. I would point out that we already have a considerable investment in the agri-food industry as primary producers. And for the most part that investement has been underperforming for some time now, especially since 2003 if not before. I would suggest for quite a while before.

Re hopeless dreamers. That is one way to put it but I would put it that we need people with vision. If I think back to my grandfather coming to this part of the bald headed prairie to homestead I am sure some back home would have thought that fool hardy, a hopeless dreamer. And in this part of the country it did not work out for everyone but the ones that stayed and tried did succeed. I would put it to you that those early pioneers had vision and were not hopeless dreamers.

In some ways it will take the same pioneering spirit and the same sense of community/working together to see primary producers successfully move up the value chain and demand their fair share of the retail food dollar instead of just taking what Cargill gives us. Which will always be just enough to barely keep us going.

I am on my way to a meeting on Raising Cows Raising Profits which is dealing with integrated marketing group alliances. Another meeting tomorrow in Peace River on the same topic. I am hoping to learn more about how producers can come together to increase their profits. The packing plant ideas would be along the same lines only on a larger scale. Some in the U.S. would rather go to R-Calf meetings but I think there are better options available to Canadian producers.