Birth deformities

[Harley]

If anyone has any advice I'd take it right now. I work for a guy that has a commercial herd of simmental, angus and charolais cows. The bulls, some old, some young, are red angus. We feed good quality alfalfa hay and bed with barley straw. The cows have full access to free choice mineral and have had it since the beginning of January. We started calving in the beginning of Feb, and have around 30 calves on the ground already. The problem? 4 different birth defects. The first calf, out of a four year old cow, was born with twisted legs curving at the knees like a bow. They have since straightened out. The next one, out of an older cow, did not live. When I found the cow calving, she had most of the calf out but appeared to be hip locked. I snuck up behind her and pulled the calf only to discover that it's legs were growing upside down. Imagine the legs twisted over it's back and looking as though they were tied in a knot. The next two, also out of older cows, have what I call a hair lip. They have a fully formed nostril on one side, but the other one comes out in the roof of their mouth. There is a visible hole in the snout and thier tongues poke through it. These two calves are almost identical, both bulls. There is absolutely no way that it's inbreeding. Also, there are no new bulls in the herd. I think that it's a bull problem, perhaps an old bull shooting bad sperm? Could it be a feed problem, maybe mineral? I would really like to know if anyone else has encountered this before so we can work to stop it from happening. I plan to call the vet in the morning as well as talk to other producers.

[farmers_son]

Did a quick look through my Merck manual and on the internet. Came up with this:

http://www.cbif.gc.ca/pls/pp/ppack.info?p_psn=32&p_type=all&p_sci=sci&p_x=pp

Silky lupine (Lupinus sericeus) is a native herb of western Canada. This lupine has caused poisoning and death in cattle, goats, horses, and sheep. Sheep eat the plants more readily than do other animals and are therefore more commonly poisoned. Cattle also suffer from crooked calf disease, a teratogenic syndrome caused by maternal ingestion of certain lupines between day 40 and day 70 of gestation. The calves can suffer from arthrogryposis, scoliosis, and other deformities. Humans are also at risk from lupine toxins. In one case in California, a child was born with limb deformities. The family raised milk goats that had also given birth to kids with deformed limbs, and a dog gave birth to deformed pups. All had ingested the goat''s milk during pregnancy. Anagyrine in a local lupine species was believed to cause the problem. Tests showed that lactating goats that ingest lupine seeds pass anagyrine in the milk. Edible lupine seeds are being marketed in health food stores. In Edmonton (Smith 1987), a woman suffered mild dizziness and incoordination after ingesting the seeds. She did not follow specific instructions to soak and boil the seeds in several changes of water, which is necessary to remove the toxins.

For a description of this plant and pictures see:

http://montana.plant-life.org/species/lupin_serice.htm

[whiteface]

I don't have a lot of experience with this Harley but here's my two cents. I'm all the way with f/s in chalking it up to a plant or toxin of some kind that certain cows ( usually old, cocky ones, or really young stupid ones ) got into. It's not genetic or age related per se as you were wondering about your bulls. No way. Don't go changeing them because of some freak birth defects. I also predict that you're going to have a heartbreaking lot more of them and will feel like shipping the whole damn lot before the end of calving season. It's okay, it's bad luck and you can't do anything about it now. This same sort of thing happened to me like a hundred years ago or so when I rented pasture from a guy who wasn't the cleanest and to this day and hundreds of congenital anomaly tests later (placenta, urine, fetus, entire dead cow) didn't find the exact culprit. Sure we knew why they died just not exactly WHAT it was that caused the life-threatening defects much to my frustration and wallet. The lab techs that worked tirelessly kept assuring me they just weren't able to do literally hundreds of "random" weed or toxin tests (Lower Mainland where I come from is LOADED with impurities of all kinds) and needed to know EXACTLY what impurity to search for. Could be any number of things he promised me. The only solution I was able to come up with was change to cleaner pasture and hope. Whatever I did (or didn't do!) worked and (touch would) haven't had or until now even heard of an experience even close to mine. I know you didn't say you rented pasture Harley, but who knows what may have gotten into it that your cows found. I wish you the best of luck in your search and please let us know if and what you find, I'm very interested, I lost more than half of my calves that year.
Hope you have a good day all! Thanks for reading my heartbreak and despair story! It sure t'weren't fun going through!

[rkaiser]

Have'nt been badmouthing Cargill lately have you Harley? They own a few Chemical companies and some planes as well.

[mjohn]

Lots of things to consider. Poisonous plants definitely, but it sure is rare to have the problem feeding hay. First, lupines, wild milkvetches, and locoweeds are not all that common in alfalfa fields. Most poisonings happen on native pastures and grazing leases. Secondly, plant poisonings are usually dose dependant and a healthy rumen is a beautiful thing for detoxifying plant poisons. Granted, it would not take a lot of lupin to cause problems, but it would be unlikely to find it growing in a Central Alberta hay field. There have been problems in the past with red clover silage, but obviously that isn't your situation. Other causes of birth defects can be viruses (BVD), genetic (you could be right about the bulls), mycotoxins, and mineral deficiencies/toxicities. Lots of things can go on with the mineral side of things. You could be seeing the effect of over/under feeding something like Manganese (not to be confused with Magnesium)or Selenium. The problem with trying to pin point an obscure trace mineral issue is, like poisonous plants, it's bloody rare (other than the biggies like Selenium and white muscle disease). Iron, Cobalt, Cadmium, and Calcium are all antagonistic to Manganese. I think your vet will likely be able to narrow it down for you if you can take a fresh still born into him. I still like the genetic angle. Good luck, hope you find out what it is.

[kato]

We had a calf born last spring with the deformed muzzle just like yours. It's like his left nostril is split between the nostril hole and his top lip. His teeth show all the time, and his tongue sticks out where his nostril should be.

When he was born, my husband came in and told me about it, and said, "Well, I guess he's toast." Then he went back out an hour later, the calf was up, licked off, and sucking the cow! We figured he wouldn't make pasture, but decided to give him a chance. He made pasture. He came home over 500 pounds, and if you didn't look at his face, you'd never know he had a problem. Last fall we figured the cold would get him because his tongue sticks out a lot, but it didn't. I guess he's going to be here until he's finished, because no one will buy him with a face like that!

We've been thinking genetics on this one, and are really watching his mother to see what she does this year. There are some recessive genes around that only show up when you breed two 'carriers'. Otherwise you would never know they were in the herd.

[Harley]

I certainly agree with the possibility of toxic weeds, but the pastures that the cows are on have been grazed by that herd for decades. I understand that over grazing can cause noxious weeds to take over, but only summer will tell if we're dealing with this possibility. The only major change that has occured in one of these pastures is the development of a possible oil lease. They drilled but found nothing. Possible chemical poisoning?
The cows were taken off the pastures in october and have been fed hay since. The hay crop came from a field that my boss has had in his family forever. They haven't done anything different with it.
I find it really interesting that kato has the same type of calf. So far, we have two out of a herd of 100. Her description of their calf is exact to these two. It's good to know that they should be able to go to pasture. I'm aware that there is no resale value on them and I'm hoping that we only have these two to butcher for ourselves.
I wonder if there is a direct correlation between the hair lip calves and the leg problem calves. I understand the possibility of the legs being attributed to mineral problems. I know that lack of selenium and Vit E will cause cows to not clean properly. It will also cause premature and weak calves. I've dealt with that one before!

[whiteface]

It's not genetics. I will bet my pretty long hair on it! That I've had over 15 years and get ooodles of compliments on and savor every one of them. I'll cut it off and donate it to any idiot that'll try and accuse genetics as the culprit, for any birth defect and prove it true. It ain't. No, I don't know for sure what impurity your cows have found, but I promise you they found something, ate it at the exact moment whatever deformity was being formed in utero at the time of ingestion (which is why they come out imperfect but nevertheless inconsistant in their deformities) and presto! You're the winner! Buy a loto ticket, feel like a million bucks and the chances that it will ever happen again are close to zero. Don't ship those good cattle on an accident like that and sure as hell don't go pestering any breeder that you got your cows or bulls from looking for guarantees or believing it's the genetics. Better odds of getting hit by lighting...today, in a snowstorm.
Have a good day all. Hope my post is not too passionate for y'all...not having a bad day just feeling passionate...
Sometimes passion is an attractive thing in a woman. Leave it at that. I'v run into this before where someone couldn't come up with a better explanation than genetics...
Come up with one. Cause that ain't it. Thanks for reading all.

[cswilson]

I'll go get the scissors lol.

[rkaiser]

I will agree with Whitey; and not because we want to see her with a Briteny doo or anything.

Cattle are actaully one of the luckier species on the planet as we tend to present them with a fairly limited menu. Take a look at a classroom full of children these days. The crap we are feeding these poor little critters is producing a lot more problems than we have in the cattle industry.

I still think my question was ligit Harley, but if you care not to answer, I will take that as a maybe.

Shithouse luck, as Whitey so elegantly and passionately eluded to.

[Harley]

It's just frustrating that this would happen to an otherwise excellent herd of girls. The only reason I'd stray to genetics is the fact that both calves look identical. It's just tough to figure out what could be the problem, as many variables have remained the same.
As to the Cargill comment... ...the owner of the cows is basically a small time farmer with no known enemies. I couldn't imagine him pissing anyone off enough to mess with his cattle.
At least both of these funny looking calves are otherwise healthy and quite able to suck. I made sure to snap some pictures of their noses. Hopefully I never see this again!

[whiteface]

You could use a little extra hair could you Wilson???!!! Make you an offer I wouldn't make anyone else...
Today only, one time offer. I'll shave my legs just for you. You get 'bout as much hair as is on my scalp and let me tell you, this stuff is premium, it can grow! We git you a hair transplant wit the stuff of my legs.... You'll have a brand new shiney head of hair and I won't go scareing poor Randy wit the Britney Spears thing!
Deal or no deal?
Love Whitey!
Have a great day all!

[cswilson]

I'll better leave you haired up for now winter isn't quite over yet lol.

[whiteface]

Thank you for the chuckle, Wilson, cold wind and snow AGAIN here today, yeah, gonna need all that insulation! Groundhogs are like weathermen, only ones who can be 50% right only 50% of the time and still keep their jobs. I'd a been fired long ago makeing mistakes like that.
Have a good day all!

[cowman]

Getting back to birth deformaties...not to take away from your own little admissions of "personal genetics!"
I doubt this is genetic unless you have been doing a lot of inbreeding(I'm talking cattle now!)? I suspect it is probably feed related? Could be a mineral problem...not sure...but weird things can happen if you don't follow a good mineral program?
For me a good mineral program is a given? You really do need to find a good nutritionalist if you want healthy cattle?
I used to be like most people and just do the old "throw out a block of salt and provide mineral/vitamins free choice" but now believe that cattle need the proper minerals and vitamins if they are going to do their best? Maybe I am a dummie and wasting my money but I use a nutritionalist to formulate the mineral/vitamin/salt ratio I feed my cows...and no it doesn't cost an arm and a leg...and cleaned up a lot of nagging problems(in my opinion)? Things like retained placentas, cracks in feet, better conception rates?
Maybe it was "chance"...but it works for me!