Age of cows

[grassfarmer]

Following on from a comment cattleman2 made in a different thread - how old is an old cow in your opinion (or in your herd?)
I'm interested in peoples policy on culling older animals - some guys sell them all at age 10, some keep them until they drop. As I've posted here before my purebred Luing cows live long lives - I recently bought an 11 year old who I consider to be in middle age - good for 5 or 6 years still.
I bought 40 "commercial red Angus" in spring of 01 that were all coming with their 4th calf or more then. We still have 18 left that will be 11 years old this spring. The group look really young still - good enough for 4 more calves in my opinion. Out of the 40 cows there were two I reckon were off a Saler sire, two of a Limo sire and two with Simmental or Shorthorn in them. With the exception of one Shorthorn type all these crossbred cows are gone - all open at a younger age. Is this simply the effect of exotic blood? How come the hybrid vigor didn't help them out?

[DiamondSCattleCo]

When one of my cows delivers her 12th calf, I consider her to be reaching her golden years. After that, I keep an eye on her. About the oldest animal I've ever had around here dropped 18 calves.

I've got some Continental/Brit cross animals in my commercial herd and I haven't really noticed any particular trend for longevity.

I have noticed that larger framed cattle won't work for as long though. Since many continental crosses tend to be larger framed, perhaps this is where you're seeing your reduction in useful breeding years?

Rod

[farmers_son]

BSE changed the way we cull cows and we have older cows now than before. As I understand it there are two factors which could affect the productive age of a cow, genetics and environment. It would seem to reason that a cow that had to struggle her entire life to get enough feed to keep herself and a calf too might not last as long as a cow that always had lots of grass in front of her. Once a cows teeth are gone her useful life is done.

On the topic of small frame versus big frame...I was at a conference this winter where the speaker made the point that the efficiency of an animal is affected by its latitude. In nature as you go further north the animals naturally get bigger. Bigger buffalo, bigger moose, bigger just about everything. So a smaller framed cow might do well in southern Alberta but north of the 52 latitude we might expect to see larger frame cows do better and live longer. I thought it was an interesting observation.

[hayburner]

I agree ,BSE has created an older aged cow herd, not many producers were willing to cull as pre bse, or in other words give good cull cows away at 10 cents a pound. As far as what is considered an old cow? I believe all the comments are true ie available feed and pasture thru the animals life. Genetics our purebred herd doesn't seem to have the longevity as some of our commerical cows. I do know that the as a result of bse we will definitely find out just how old a majority of our cows will sill remain productive. The older cows will still come back in calf every year but the quality and size of the calf at sale time is the proof that we should start culling.

[grassfarmer]

That is interesting farmers_son, I know Bonsma explains the cause of the "larger as you go north theory" I can't remember the details. That said when you talk bison, moose or deer you are referring to nature at work. With beef cattle producers are creating entirely different conditions to nature ie calving 1500lb cows in barns in January -40C weather so I would argue that natural size is no longer being influenced by environment.

[kato]

Our oldest home raised cow is a B, so that makes her 15, I think. We also have four cows that we bought as bred in 1997, and I don't think they were anywhere near being first or second calvers at the time. They are probably at least 15 themselves.

We've got a bunch of 10 year olds as well, one of which had a set of twins yesterday.

Our culling has changed a lot since the BSE came along as well. We have found we are not nearly as unforgiving of late cows as we were. We used to take any that hadn't calved when the herd went to pasture, let them calve at home in a small pasture, and didn't even turn a bull in with them. Those late cull cows used to be worth good money because they always came home fat due to the light workload.

Not now. Now, as long as they are bred in the fall when they are preg checked, no matter how far along, they get to stay. Even a small calf in the fall will keep us happier than selling a cow for $300.00 will.

A bonus we've found is that some of those later cows have moved back up with the herd. The truly fertility challenged ones have culled themselves.

Oh yea, yes we do calve early. And no, we're not going to change. We use rented pasture that's 60 miles away for a lot of the cows, and there's no way we're letting them calve out there. But that's a topic for a different thread.......

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"So a smaller framed cow might do well in southern Alberta but north of the 52 latitude we might expect to see larger frame cows do better and live longer. I thought it was an interesting observation."

Hmmmm, it is an interesting observation, but it doesn't explain why I make more money and have better longevity on my 1200 lb cows than I used to make/have with my 15-1600 lb cows. I live in Northern Saskatchewan. Not quite as cold as Manitoba, but doggoned close

Rod

[farmers_son]

I included the comment on size versus location just for interest. I have not formed an opinion on the matter.

I know I have seen where the bigger cows were willing to get out and rustle swath grazing in cold weather when the smaller cows were somewhat reluctant but that observation was based on small numbers as most were out grazing and only a few were standing in the bush.

I am however impressed that you actually know you are making more money with 1200 pound cows than 15-1600 pound cows. It would take some very good record keeping to be able to tell. Throw in changing markets, for instance a 1500 pound cow in 2001 would likely make more money than a 1200 pound cow in 2006 and it becomes even more complex.

I have been working on a spreadsheet that would allow me to model my farm or any farm for that matter up to five years into the future. I started thinking about this 10 years ago and had a few trys but finally got it completed this month.

I think the most profitable size of cow will depend upon a lot of factors. Longevity is one of those. Pounds of calf weaned per cow is another. If you cared to share how you determined the smaller cow made you more money I would be very interested. I could change some assumptions in my spreadsheet and see how the numbers might work for me.

[gaucho]

You guys are all talking size of cows...maybe you should talk more about body type. We run our cows under tough conditions... snow, clean air, low quality grass seed residues, with some alfalfa hay for supplementation. The cows that do the best are the sqauwtier, deep barrelled cows,... often smaller framed and usually the cows that wean calves right in the middle of the pack. Anything that is tall, has got got too much milk and is tight gutted falls usually falls apart and have to be pulled. As for age if you want them to last longer it all will come down to what you expect for output from your cows...We retain ownership of all our calves and so I could care less about weaning weights, unless they are dinks. I like to think of longevcity sort of like cars...if you want to go fast get a a farrari, but don't expect a 500,000 km out of the engine...if you want to go the distance but probably slower get a jetta that will garantee you 500,000 km on the engine.

[cswilson]

You can manipulate mature cow size a fair bit by putting some hard selection pressure on your replacement heifers-people tend to treat them like beauty queens and end up with some higher maintenance brood cows. You won't go to far wrong running 12-1300 pound cows-the extremes either way in the cattle business tend to only work in certain times and trends. Really no magic formula to plug in and go from there.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Point taken Gaucho. I always forget there are guys who still swear that FS7 cows are the way to make money.

When I mention a 1200 lb cow, I mean a good little FS4, 12 - 1300 lb cow. Compact, deep ribbed. Nature didn't select those types up here, but those are the kind that keep costs low.

Rod

[hayburner]

Farmers-son ..Your spread sheet is a good start.You ask for comments ..I believe you have to compare feed conversion in the formula. Weather conditions must also be a factor as you can not compare the weaning weights year after year. A medium frame cow can have many variances in her calf depending on how hard the winter conditions were on her body fat reserve for new born's milk supply.
When I first started out I kept consice records on the cow herd gestation time and found some interesting facts that the cows that have a shorter carrying time had calves that daily rate of gain was much higher than cows that carried longer. We started only keeping heifers from short gestation cows and found that the tract was passed on to their offspring. A calf born two weeks earlier gained higher than calves that were still in womb. There was a huge difference in the time frame that cows carry their calver. We did not use twins in the program for obivious reasons that a cow well kick out twins alot earlier.

[hayburner]

Correction tract should have read trait.

[hayburner]

Correction tract should have read trait.

[cswilson]

Short gestation sires usually calve a bit better for obvious reasons. it's amazing how many calves some guys have before they're scheduled start date.