Judge Rules For Creekstone- Against USDA

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"If we set science aside and accept Japan’s unscientific requirements for BSE testing than all trade is threatened."

I see this statement often, and I suppose from the CCIA and USDA viewpoint, Japan's initial stance was unscientific since it disagreed with their own.

The behaviour of the USDA/CCIA/CCA reminds me of a saying: "The level of a mans intelligence is best measured by the level in which he agrees with you."

However, its my understanding that Japan tested every animal, operating under the _scientific_ theory that if the level of prions was high enough to be detected, they'd be sufficiently high enough to possibly infect a human host with vCJD. Since I've certainly not seen any definitive studies or evidence to the contrary, I think its somewhat arrogrant for those of us in North America to tell Japan that they're full of crap.

And even if you don't buy into that arguement, at least Japan's border closure was completely legal from WTO standards. They test 100% of their beef, and are completely within their rights to ask that all countries who wish to export to them do the same. Their consumers are completely within their rights to ask for anything they please, scientific or unscientific.

And our companies here at home should be allowed to service those demands, should the consumer be willing to pay for them. Its one of the cornerstones of a free market economy, and it was allowed to be obliterated by unproven CCIA/USDA science.

Thank god the courts in the US finally recognized this, and hopefully the CCIA will soon follow suit.

Rod

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Randy,

Anyone can take any of my posts do what they will with them. I only ask that they flush after using.....

Rod

[farmers_son]

Actually the OIE is the accepted standard of what is crap and what is not when it comes to animal health. Not Japan. See:

http://www.oie.int/eng/OIE/organisation/en_CS.htm?e1d8

Japan is one of the world’s most protectionist countries when it comes to their agriculture and their stance on BSE testing should be taken for what it is. So it is not a matter of Japan not agreeing with the U.S. or not agreeing with Canada. It is a matter of Japan not agreeing with the world, from which the OIE draws its scientific opinions.

The OIE has established new guidelines for testing for BSE :

See: http://www.vido.org/beefinfonet/animalhealth/reportable_diseases/5_abp_bse.pdf

The accepted standard for BSE testing is now based upon a point system and the risk classification of the region or country. The OIE recognizes that BSE testing is for surveillance purposes only and that food safety is best achieved by removal of SRMs. Japan knows this as well as Canada and the U.S does. The U.S. can be protectionist too, as we all know and also needs to be reminded occasionally about science based trade.

I recognize that Japan has a testing program in place for their herd, a herd which is very small. Japan is not a beef exporting country. No one should make any mistake about it, if Japan wanted to export beef instead of protect its producers from other country’s imports its stance on BSE testing for export would be completely different.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

But now we've brought the debate full circle, farmers_son. The Japanese government no longer requires 100% testing to gain access to their marketplace as can be seen by their allowing us access.

But the Japanese consumer? They still want 100% BSE tested beef and they won't buy ours until it is. So we're no longer up against a government and its protectionism, but rather an entire people and their desire to have their demands met, OIE be damned.

Rod

[DiamondSCattleCo]

In re-reading, I guess I've failed to address a couple points.

Your point about Japan's stance on BSE testing because they are a beef importing nation may be valid (although they do export some specialty beef), however its a "what if" in an alternate universe and while we can certainly make educated guesses on the answer, they will only be just that: guesses.

The fact is that Japan is doing exactly what a government in its position should be doing: protecting its people and its businesses. And they are doing so within the rules and guidelines set forth by the WTO. Wouldn't it be refreshing if we had a government that would do the same for us?

Rod

[catlman]

This is so obvious it is only a means to an end, Creekstone wants to market to japan and they are testing to gain acess. It has nothing to do with safety. As they will be testing cattle under 20 months which is the restriction on age japan put on imports. So if they want to play they will have to jump thru hoops as set by the japanese. How many positives will they find ? Zero is my prediction. It is the way to get acess to a market. Just like the first cattle destined to the EU from canada this year these cattle are free of implants and fed in accordance to EU cattle feeding regulations. The deal is signed and sealed now the beef has to be delivered. You have to be prepared - the customer is right and do what they want if you want to sell to them product. So for creekstone it is good marketing. Just like celtic beef there will be people who want it and i'm sure randy will find a way to get them. This is simple supply and demand. Just there are some hoops to jump thru to get into a market you want. As far are unfair trade rules and protectionism they sticking points and meant to be just that. Just trip wires we have to be willing to lift our knees to walk thru and not drag our feet.

[rkaiser]

Farmer_son said - "Rkaiser: I do think the ABP and CCA read these posts. You have as much access to the ABP as I do, feel free to tell them yourself. I confess I am just a lowly cattle producer who is busy calving his cows. If you are trying to put a spin on my comments in these threads by implying I am Mr. ABP that would be incorrect. I think ABP and CCA are really focused on getting Rule 2 through so our market for cows is restored. I am not sure how concerned they would be over this development as I would think it will get overturned in the appeal just like Judge Cebull blocking our live cattle and beef did."


I was not implying that you were Mr. ABP farmer_son - just that I would like you to run for that office. I have found very little that you and I disagree on except for the testing issue and maybe a bit of American border stuff. How is it that you think the open border will help our cull cow price? If they do open the border - I almost guarantee that it will be boxed beef only and will once again benefit only Cargill Tyson and to a lesser extent Nillson Bros. However the Nillson Bros. thing has a nice CarTys twist. Them boys bought a couple of plants south of the line and I just bet that Cargill and Tyson don't want them to have too much gravy.

As I said in the CBEF office the other day - we may not need them fairly soon. These cow numbers are a droppin despite what we read in the canfax report (in fact I have not read that report lately and it may show what I am predicting)An open border to boxed cull beef will drop our cow herd in a hurry, but the price will not increase much. What are we at today 42 cents in Canada vs. 50 in the States? Factor in the dollar and work with the pathetic basis that the fat cattle market is using and whala - price is fixed ahead of the game..........

As far as the Creekstone deal - I agree - the USDA led by Cargill and Tyson will not allow this thing to proceed YET ---- Still time for a bit more Salmon runnin first.

[smcgrath76]

I believe I would fall on the testing side of the fence. I think if free enterprise wants to test for market access then that should certainly be allowed. I am not paying for it as a taxpayer. If the business does not have some commitment from the potential customer who is asking for testing then that is the risk/poor planning of the business and not particularly my concern (unless it is my business).
I don't believe that all other consumers will immediately ask for tested product (they don't all ask for hormone free, or natural). I also don't believe in the issue of line stoppages as postulated by various pundits. At our current incidence rate, the stoppage would be less than a penny per head. Plants that don't want to test, don't have to so would not even have stoppages.
I just think that limiting export market access through domestic policy is akin to a nontariff trade barrier imposed by ourselves on us.

[hayburner]

to everyone a question... A few years ago CBC Country Canada had a program on a Kansus feedlot and slaughter plant operation that wanted to test every animal it put on the kill floor but the big boys in the kill business did everything in their power to stop it. I believe it was 'Red Cherdin' or something like that.Is this the same company that won this court case?? let's move on down the road and test every dam animal and as I tell the grandkids suck it up its along way from your heart !

[catlman]

I think you are refering to SHOOT, SHOVEL and SHUT-UP from country canada they will be doing a follow up this season. Reg interviewed Bill Feilding of Creekstone,at the Fort Morgan, Co. plant, they wanted to test 100% but they slaugher mostly animals under 20 months. They had the testing lab built before the first positive ever showed up. How did Creekstone know there would be BSE in the US ? I know the sceptics will say they didn't know and were just doing due dilegence. Yeah, spend millions on a testing facility and lab supplies just for sh*ts and giggles, I DONT THINK SO. Fielding stated a test would cost $20 US a head and would take about 4 hours to complete. Sure, time stands still at the lab in Colorado when it takes alot longer to test in the rest of the world. All the people doing the testing would be employed by Creekstone. Can we say conflict of interest. Just look at what happened to Dave Louthan - the guy who put down the washington cow. She was showing no clinical signs of BSE according to him. When asked he said what really happened, the USDA and the packer told him the cow was a downer and that is why she was tested. She was tested because they thought she was not expected to be positive. When he disputed what his employer was saying he lost his job. To me the scarey part of this is that a former USDA employee ( Micheal Schwochert ) said in 02 & 03 close to 500 cattle showing classical clinical signs of BSE in that target testing group reported by USDA employees that were supposed to be tested went missing before samples could be collected as the animals were under the control of the state vets and packing companies. The same thing was contiuning in 04. So is this still going on? I haven't heard of anything changing. Other than companies contracted by the USDA to test BSE target animals in the US have been charged with fraud because they were testing UTM animals and being paid to test OTM cattle. A question i have is what was the results of the lawsuits filed over the washington cow because several california restaurants served meat from the postive cow and supermarkets sold burger containing her meat to customers. Kinda quiet ? So at least in canada the meat from the positive animals isn't going into the human foodchain. If you want go to country canada's web site, a complete transcript of the episode is available there.

[Willowcreek]

catlman- quote "So at least in canada the meat from the positive animals isn't going into the human foodchain."
-------------------------
When did Canada start testing all at slaughter?
Even all OTM's? EH

How many positives hadn't manifested themselves to the point where they died at home and got tested-- and instead were run thru the slaughter plant that you and the Canadian consumers have been eating...

Remember what the Scientists said about the 4 year old positive- if it hadn't died of mastitis it would have lived (without obvious BSE symptoms) for several months- and could have easily went into the food chain...

You're only fooling yourself if you think that your testing is catching all--with the 11 positives you've found their are probably 100's that have not been found and entered the food chain...

The reason I want Canadian OTM beef labeled as such before its allowed south...

[catlman]

Since you want to argue somantics i will engage you this time, I should have written "at least none of the meat from any animals testing positive has gone into the human foodchain". Is that better ? Amazing how you didn't go anywhere else. So i will take it as you accept and agree with all the other statements from the post and the particular program. So with thousands of presumtive positives disappearing before they could be tested since 02 how can you eat beef in the US ? Good for Creekstone to test, but as i has said previously they will be testing under 20 month,( not exactly the target group ) cattle they want to ship to asia. But their employees will be doing the testing to ensure they can cover up the positives they find in under 20 cattle in the US. I guess that is the way of the US packers make sure the fix is in so there is absolutly no way they find BSE. It is a good marketing idea and gets Creekstone into the asian markets as they were shipping approximately 40% of all their production prior to the discovery of native positive animals infected with BSE. I find it interesting that you seem to know exactly how many positives are being missed in Canada? LOL. Do you also know how many positves are being buried in the US everyday before the can be tested, compared to how many are passing thru the Human food chain untested and undiscovered ? LMAO. Give me a break. I find it funny how all you ever want to do is play the blame game. Personally i think if testing every animal over 20 or 30 months is what it takes, every country that has had a single positive native case it should be done no exceptions and the testing should be done by 3rd parties to keep everything above board. But we both know that won't happen because the US based multinational packers won't allow it in the US. Maybe because they know there will be thousands of native positives in the US? As far as questioning our testing up here we are testing a way higher % of our target animals. And companies aren't being charged for fraud because we testing what we say we are. Keep on playing the blame game it will get you no where as will the scare game. Have a look at the statisics - canadians are eating more canadian beef now than before discovery of BSE. Oh yeah i'll just stick another pin in your voodoo doll - 2000 live canadian heifers have gone thru quarentine and are being loaded onto a floating feedlot to be exported to Russia this week. Another country accepting live canadian breeding cattle how many are going to be in the US shipment? Oh yeah ZERO. How is that knee feeling ?

[Willowcreek]

Saskartoon catlmn- I don't know what all your babbling about- but just because I didn't respond to all your conspiracy theories doesn't mean I believe in them...And yes we do have BSE in the US- but just because we have some, we don't need to be going out and importing more in- especially when even the USDA says the statistics indicate there is so many more cases in Canada...Thats absolutely stupid...

Just because I have a rattlesnake living under the porch that I haven't been able to kill- doesn't mean I should go out a get dozen more....

[catlman]

Make up your mind do you want the packers to control the testing or not? I suggest not, just look at the latest USDA inspector generals report. BSE testing is supposed to be reduced by 90%. All the while in his report he admits non ambulatory cattle are being put in the human foodchain. Who knows if they were BSE positives, they were not tested. Maybe the US should be testing some animals showing clinical signs of BSE. In one USDA study of 12 packing plants 2 were still processing non ambulatory cattle for human consumption. Gee that is a good idea. This with feed bans that have loopholes allowing protein derrived from ruminants to to be fed to ruminants according to your own FDA. So cows are still eating cows in the US. My question is do you want to eliminate BSE or spread it around more and then blame someone else.FEED BAN means a prohibition of these activities.
As for Creekstone testing cows if they want to ship to japan they better not be testing cows, as they are only allowed to export under 20 month old animals to japan that would make the animals they are testing heifers, heiferettes and old steers at the oldest not cows. Or are these guys trying to pass off old cows as young premium beef?

[Willowcreek]

saskartoon- So now you not only know that no positive cows ever went into your food chain- but you also know that Japan/Asia won't take anything over twenty months-even if its been tested...

You are truly an example of why Canucks need to ride the US cattlemens shirttails and have someone do their marketing for them....LOL