Advice on Grass Blend.....please

[lakenheath]

I need some advice on a grazing blend (will sometimes be hayed). I would like to use a vetch in the blend rather than alfalfa (don't have time to worry about bloat).

What are some good blends to use in the brown soil zone in Southwest Sask?

Guys around here are moving away from crested wheat completely and moving to higher percentage meadow brome with some russian wild rye and vetch.

What do you guys think of this blend:

60% FleetMeadow Brome
20% Russian Wild Rye
20% Cicer Milk Vetch

(no crested wheat?)

I am totally new to this. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also seeding rate recommendations.

[randyo]

We have been seeding grass for a few years now and are more in west central sask. but can get real dry here. We have seeded crested wheat with intermediate wheat grass also meadow brome,intermediate
wheat grass and cicer milkvetch and touch of alfalfa.The milkvetch is expensive and dosen't establish very well.I would not recommend it.Russian wild rye becomes too clumpy and very rough to cut or drive on.We are now going to a 65% meadow brome grass 30% crested wheat and a 5% alfalfa at about 7-8 pounds per acre of total seed.

[countryguy]

Don't expect to see any milkvetch for 3 to 4 years after you seed it.Don't be sscared to put 10% alfafa in the blend.When the vetch does finally come the tannins in it will reduce the risk of bloat.I've also grazed pure alfalfa without a problem.

[mjohn]

Sorry. No condensed tannins in Cicer Milkvetch (different bloat reducing mechanism than trefoil or sainfoin). If you want to reduce bloat on the alfalfa by seeding a non-bloat legume with CT's use sainfoin (however its not as simple as throwing a pound or two in the stand. Very large seed, would need at least 20# per acre IMHO.

From FAO forage fact sheet on Milkvetch......

"Its (milkvetch)non-bloat-inducing characteristic is probably related to the physical make-up of the foliage - thicker cuticles, epidermal and mesophyll cell walls than bloat-causing legumes such as white and red clovers, and hence slower disintegration and digestion by rumen bacteria (Lees et al., 1981; Lees, Howarth and Goplen, 1982)."

I'm not a fan of Cicer on real dry sites (ie. SE Alberta or SW Sask). Other things to throw in your mix would be creeping rooted alfalfa, pubescent wheatgrass, western wheatgrass, tall fescue, and a hint of slender wheatgrass. Try to increase the diversity of what you are seeding. I know of a few that would even add 1/2 to 1 1/2 pounds of sweetclover as well.

Regards,

Mark

[mjohn]

Sorry. No condensed tannins in Cicer Milkvetch (different bloat reducing mechanism than trefoil or sainfoin). If you want to reduce bloat on the alfalfa by seeding a non-bloat legume with CT's use sainfoin (however its not as simple as throwing a pound or two in the stand. Very large seed, would need at least 20# per acre IMHO.

From FAO forage fact sheet on Milkvetch......

"Its (milkvetch)non-bloat-inducing characteristic is probably related to the physical make-up of the foliage - thicker cuticles, epidermal and mesophyll cell walls than bloat-causing legumes such as white and red clovers, and hence slower disintegration and digestion by rumen bacteria (Lees et al., 1981; Lees, Howarth and Goplen, 1982)."

I'm not a fan of Cicer on real dry sites (ie. SE Alberta or SW Sask). Other things to throw in your mix would be creeping rooted alfalfa, pubescent wheatgrass, western wheatgrass, tall fescue, and a hint of slender wheatgrass. Try to increase the diversity of what you are seeding. I know of a few that would even add 1/2 to 1 1/2 pounds of sweetclover as well.

Regards,

Mark

[whiteface]

I'm always amazed at people's issues with alfalfa. I too have grazed pure alfalfa with no problems and when it works it's incredible as far as growth, gains, fertility, milking ability, you name it. When it doesn't work and sometimes it doesn't (weather, growth stage, cows own experience grazing it, lots of things can affect) it becomes a ticking time bomb that does actually explode all at once.
I've always given the advice of if you like the output that alfalfa is capable of providing and don't mind a hair more attention to detail than many are willing to put in, then seed it straight, the rewards are beyond belief. If you don't want any form of management whatsoever, I can never figure out why anyone would even put 5% into a mix. Cows are certainly capable of seeking out the only 5% of the plants in a field and eating themselves dead if they get a notion. Especially regrowth. Seen it happen and people get freaked out over alfalfa.
Beyond that, I personally love orchard grass and personally hate timothy with about the same passion. Lots of reasons for both but since I'm in central AB, I don't suppose my advice has a whole lot of merit for your situation anyway. Just got nothing to do this morning waiting for the phone to ring, thought I'd just yak to hear myself type. Stay warm all, git yer snow shovels back out. Thanks for reading. Have a good day all!

[greybeard]

I have to agree about the alfalfa. As long as you have a good stand of Meadow Brome the will always eat it by preference. I’ve walked into a stand of Meadow Brome/Alfalfa that looked ungrazed until you looked close. The grass was grazed out and the Alfalfa was nearly ungrazed.
I had a pasture that came thick with Red Clover last year due to all the spring moisture. Again the cattle prefer the grass. I look at legumes as the only way to be sustainable. 46-0-0 is being quoted at near 60 cents/lb. Grass without nitrogen doesn’t support many cows on newly seeded pasture in this country.
I think bloat gets the blame for every dead animal if Alfalfa is in the field. They all bloat up when dead. That’s not to say animals never bloat. We all know of someone who has had a “Bloat storm”.
If you don’t have a copy of the Alberta Forage Manual, be sure to order one. It’s been around for 50 years and is still the best by far.
I also suggest when you buy your seed ask to see the crop certificate to check for purity.
I won’t buy anything with any foxtail barley at all.

[gaucho]

I agree on the alfalfa, however there are some varieties that have lower bloat incidences than others like AC Grazeland and Anik Alfalfa. Anik would be great in that part of the world. It is a super long lived yellow blossmed siberian variety with a 20 year plus life span. It is by far the most winter hardy and takes grazing well. It is finer stemmed and leaved than other alfalfa varieties. Slower to regrow but probably part of the reason guys swear they have minimal incidences with bloat.

I have to agree 100% there better be legumes present in a mix....especially with N costing over $0.60/lb. Alfalfa also will add quality, drought tolerance and tonnage to the sward. My exeperince with cicer is you pay a lot for something that takes 5 years to fully establish and even then it will not yield like alaflafa. If you need to track some Anik down send me an email spiritviewranch@primus.ca. We also sell meadow brome deliverd into Saskachewan at $1.50 / lb... compared to agricore at $3.60 / lb.

[cswilson]

Well I guess I'm a bit of a heretic-I haven't bought commercial fertilizer or seeded any new grass for 15 years or so. We feed out on our pastures and rotationally graze and seem to get as many cowdays/acre as most. There's some alfalfa in most of our pastures but our main grass is quackgrass-it can be an amazing producer if it's nurtured and managed-the seed is very reasonable I think most of mine was donated lol.I wouldn't be afraid of putting some alfalfa and meadow brome in the mix for sure.

[smcgrath76]

I think Alfalfa is a great product, but it doesn't work well in a discovery grazing program (turn your cows out, discover them later).
In a well managed system, alfalfa is great and can have a long stand life. We have some that is 20 years old and producing better than when it was 3.
I still like crested wheat. It has some invasive tendencies and must be managed, but it gives great early season grazing, can handle drought and you can usually pull a couple of trips over it during the course of a summer (roughly 90 day recovery time). The new varieties don't tend to go "wolfy" like some of the older ones.
I kind of like quackgrass too in moderation. It has a pretty terrific nutrient profile and as CS says the seed is cheap. The russion and altai wildryes are also quite good grasses and spread the grass curve out into mid summer. They also cure well for winter grazing.
Cicer is probably better suited for the black/dark brown soil zones, although I have seen it used successfully in brown zones. I know some producers that have had great luck underseeding cicer by putting into the cows' mineral and letting them do the work. Might be a relatively low cost way to experiment with it.

[parsley]

Sainfoin is the best.Non-bloat. loves hilss that are nutritionally played out. Cattle love it.