CCA comments

[catlman]

Wk how many times does it have to be shown that the US feedban was the same as the canadian one. And yes until 1990 you were importing and feeding potentially BSE infected MBM and yet had only 2 cases. what are the odds? I was born on a day but not yesterday. The only plausible explanation is that the US is not reporting all the positives. As much as you want to deny it the levels are most likely identical in the US and Canada so that would mean you guys are missing 20 or so cases a year. NO THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH BSE IN THE US. I am tired of listening to this crap, quit the blame game and let us cattlemen US and Canadian fix this NOW. Start testing every OTM animal- NO EXCEPTIONS, Implement a real feedban with NO loopholes and a SRM management plan for both the US and Canada like the one about top be implemented in canada. Let us fix this thing and quit letting others get rich because we are busy playing the blame game. United we can win divided we fall.

[Willowcreek]

Yep- Test all is what you should have done/should be doing instead of this new SRM removal plan - a lot cheaper in the long run, would reassure consumers of safe beef, and could have opened up other markets for your beef instead of having to ride the US's hind teat...

This plan now is just a further divider between the two countries ranchers...First off the additional rules tells US cattlemen/consumers that the Canadian government (CFIA) recognizes or believes Canada has a greater problem than the US-- then it again pits the US cattleman against The Canadian because with the costs of this rule IF the border by chance should open it would be more economical to ship all cattle to the US for slaughter (where there isn't the cost of these rules)- further destroying the US cull market-- while making the US the dumping ground of the higher risk potentially infected SRM's.....

[cpallett]

Willowcreek you are a silly, silly man. The Canadian government's excuse for not bringing in a feed ban in 1994 was that we had to keep pace with the US and they did not have a feed ban. So both countries suffered the economic scourge of BSE as a result. Now you want to criticize Canada for finally banning SRMs in all animal food 17 years after the Brits did it. Too little, too late, but certainly had to be done.

Testing does not solve the problem. An enhanced feed ban solves the problem. You are like a quack doctor that thinks aspirin is the way to treat a brain tumour. The pain may go away briefly, but the problem remains. Let us thank all the Gods that even the CFIA aren't that thick.

[grassfarmer]

"Testing does not solve the problem. An enhanced feed ban solves the problem." That's a rather bold claim Mr Pallet as it implies that we have a full understanding of BSE and it's spread which we do not. It also goes against everything the late Mark Purdey believed in which I'm not entirely comfortable with. One of his statements to me was that although thousands of tons of MBM was exported from the UK to north Africa throughout the 1980s they never had a case of BSE - explain that one. If the enhanced feed ban solves the problem how come the UK still had 148 cases of BSE in the first 10 months of 2005 - 9 years after their enhanced feed ban came in?

Bottom line this is yesterday's battle in my opinion - can't you find someone to sue for last fall's disastrous calf prices? they were way worse than anything BSE caused and there was no Government compensation.

[Willowcreek]

And everyday that Canada doesn't test, an unknown number of positive animals may be going into the food chain- with still enough infection even after SRM removal, to infect tons of meat...All of which could come back to really bite us/Canada in the butt 15- 20 years down the line...

Better oil up your law books- Mr. Pallet--As you know, since consumers are unable to identify Canadian meat in the US and are by default almost forced to eat it if they want to eat beef--so if/when cases of vCJD begin appearing it will be Canada that is blamed for the whole problem--since the US government has told the US consumer that the US does not have BSE anymore...

Nope- Both Canada and the US should have done a strict policy from the day BSE was discovered (like they originially had in place- Packers be damned)- which includes both SRM removal and testing all OTM's (over twenty months)-- but they instead muddled thru, continually changing the rules for the Big 4 multinatinals- and now have a set of rules that doesn't truly identify the extent of the problem, protects no-one, will eradicate nothing for 15-20 years and gives these Packers a chance to again manipulate the cull prices down if they get the border open....

[cpallett]

Grassfarmer, it is the nature of the beast that litigators fight 'yesterday's battles'. Ask the HepC victims. It took ten years to get them a deal in place. Compensation actually being paid took longer. It took 14 years to settle the Residential Schools litigation. Frustrating? Absolutely. Futile? I hope not. If this class action results in nothing more than a little more care and accountability going forward from the Feds towards Canadian producers, then I will have accomplished a great deal indeed.

The North African question is interesting. I do not have an answer for you, but I certainly have lots of questions. Is there any evidence the MBM was incorporated into calf starter?

As for the 'enhanced feed ban', FYI the new Canadian model is based on the September 25, 1990 UK version, not the March 1996 version that sought to eliminate all possibility of cross-contamination. You have to admit that 148 cases in 2005 is quite an improvement from the tens of thousands of cases in the UK in 1992.

The latest attack rate study published this year in the Journal of General Virology indicates that the scientists were not able to achieve an end point dilution showing no infectivity. Infectivity was demonstrated in 1 of 15 calves with a mere .001 gram of brain material from a BSE positive cow. Wow. So, it may be that BSE is like AIDS, one infectious particle, whatever it may be, in the right place at the right time in a susceptible calf is enough to do the job. It may also very well be that Mark Purdey was absolutely right and there are a number of co-factors to consider. I try to be wary of absolutes, and just keep working hard.

[cpallett]

Welcome to the party Willowcreek. If the answer is that both the US and Canada need to have a strict BSE policy in place, packers be damned, then what possible sense is there in US/Canada pointing fingers at each other? Both the FDA and the CFIA need to get together and tighten things up with the border opening to all cattle on the top of the agenda. Let's get this thing done. Now.

As for testing, there are two general measures of the effectiveness of any test; sensitivity and specificity. Sensitivity is a measure of the number of false negatives. You want a very sensitive test so that no false negatives slip through. Specificity is a measure of the number of false positives. You want a very, very specific test so that no animals are accused of being BSE positive when, in fact, they are not. Tough criteria to meet for any test. However, the potential problems created by rushing to implement sloppy testing are far greater than not testing at all. Why? Dr. Neil Cashman told me that the modelling studies they have done indicate that there may be as many as 50 BSE positive cattle in Canada. Maximum. Out of 15 million. This is not a big number, to say the least. A sloppy test that shows false positives will serve to increase the already unreasonable fears on the part of the consumer, and has emphatically the potential to do more harm than good to both Canadian and American producers. Thus the caution over testing. You show me a test that can do the job right and I will enthusiastically jump on board.

[Willowcreek]

Mr. Pallet-- I spent 30 years in law enforcement-- and one thing I learned is that when public safety (especially mass public safety) is involved you always error on the side of safety... Neither the USDA nor CFIA did this with their BSE decisions...Both decided that Packer profits/economics/beef trade took preference...

And if the testing finds 1 or 2 of those 50 head believed to be in the Canadian herd at slaughter and prevents some diseased particles/prions from getting into the human food chain- and eventually affecting God only knows how many with vCJD-- what is it worth?

Personally I think testing ALL is the only way Canada will regain confidence in its beef...From the studying I've done on the history of BSE in both countries and both governments actions/inactions, foulups and coverups, I don't think the major storm has even hit us yet...Its almost inevitable that someone in the two countries will be found to have vCJD of domestic origin-- and then the potential sh t is going to hit the fan...
The US, and our government in particular, has a history of not being proactive- but reactive..And when they react they usually overreact in a big way...There will be Congressmen and Senators, Politicians and Bureaucrats- all running around pointing fingers, blaming each other, blaming Canada, slamming shut borders, mass mandatory testings, banning of beef in schools, etc. etc...
Just look at the reaction a few dead dogs and cats got to the Chinese melamine incident.. It alone almost certainly guarantees the US will have a mandatory country of origin labeling law which we haven't been able to get enacted in over 10 years....
Nope- I think what we (cattlemen in both countries) went thru is just a little squall, compared to the storm that will come- and we are still not doing enough to prepare for it...

[cpallett]

Willowcreek, fearmongering is not the answer. The best current estimates are that the UK has had a total of about 800,000 cattle infected with BSE over the years. Less than 200 cases of vCJD. That works out to less than one case of vCJD per 4,000 head of infected cattle.

I said I would support testing that will do the job right. That includes testing that will not indicate false negatives or false positives. You have to look at the numbers to figure it out. If we test 1M head and miss the one or two BSE cases and identify 1 or 2 false positives (or more) then what good in God's green earth would that do? Feed anti-Canadian paranoia, perhaps, but not much else. A bad test is far worse for all concerned than no test.

Fear is driven by ignorance. Education is one possible answer. Facts are, I think, important in the real world, as any law enforcement officer will tell you. (hate to admit it, but one of my best friends is a 30 year ex-cop - also on the team)

[Willowcreek]

Fact- Mr. Pallet-- By testing ALL, Japan has found 30-40 head of infected cattle that they were able to keep out of their human food chain...Maybe they missed 1 or 2-- but I'd rather play Russian Roulette with 1 cartridge in the cylinder than 5-- or as I feel Canada is 6....

How many infected Canadian cattle have already gone into the human food chain?

And the reason I say Canadian is because the statistics/numbers show that is the cluster or concentration area for the disease in N.A.- and that is still manifesting itself thru a feedban that didn't work....

And I just don't have the same faith in the multinational Corporates and their SRM removal that you do...I guess my years of brand inspecting at a Corporate owned plant did not give me much faith in the employees they had/have- many of which not only can't read or write, but can't speak English,lived like animals, and had a turnover rate faster than a tumbleweed in a hurricane....The local plant was hauling in a new truckload from California every other week... I have a tough time convincing myself that these folks are taking added care in a procedure that my Vet says can easily contaminate other meat and that does not remove all prions anyway (especially when each country has a different definition of what is an SRM)....Seems to me a human life is worth the added step of testing.....

[kato]

The reason Canada doesn't test? Or even consider testing?

Pressure from the Americans for fear they will have to test too. That's why.

What if we tested? What if we sent tested beef to the U.S. under MCOOL with a big maple leaf on it that had BSE tested stamped underneath it? What if you found even one positive in the U.S.? Thanks to the fear mongering of a few, the price of Canadian beef would pick up a bit, to say the least.

Be careful what you ask for.

[Willowcreek]

Kato- Do Canadians have to ask the US for permission to go to the bathroom too????...

This only points out what a sad situation you've (Canadian cattlemen) allowed your cattle groups and government to put you in...But no one up there (except Ol Kaiser and Big-C) even seem to want to do anything about it-- as long as you can get back to the status quo of riding on the US producers shirttails.....

[kato]

You've obviously never been on the receiving end of your country's foreign trade policy. You guys are not easy to deal with.

Here's an article from the Cato Institue. (No relation. LOL) It pretty much sums up the joys of doing international trade with America.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-164.html

I know you will slam this group for being liberal and all that, but you can't deny that this fellow seems to have a pretty high level of intelligence.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Willow, do you understand how idiotic you sound? You point fingers at Canada for possibly allowing infected animals into the food chain, yet its pretty obvious that the US has done the same. Only someone exceedingly dense could possibly not see the evidence.

You're a hypocrite, Willow, and I grow weary of your banter that serves no purpose other than to attempt to rile someone up. Why don't you spend some of that energy on trying to fix YOUR government? I see you always posting away about how us Canadians should leave you Americans alone and how we have no say in your industry, so right back at ya. Until your garbage industry is fixed up, shut the hell up and quit being a hypocrite.

Rod

[jensend]

oh heck let (the) montana dick keep on dishing out ignorance. if nothing else we canadians can feel intellectually superior when you consider this guy is a spokesman for r-calf.