How do most people feed hay to their cows in winter?

[grassfarmer]

I'm sorry then Rod I don't understand your earlier comment about the feet of the cattle tearing up the grass around the feeders.
I'm not entirely sold on this bale grazing theory with no feeders yet. I think it's one of those things you really have to think on and pencil out on your own operation. I believe it produces excellent pasture the next year but purecountry you are not comparing like to like. To say the grass produced is better than your native pasture or the neighbours pasture is not comparing like to like. I would like you to consider bale feeding with and without feeders - there will be a maximum level of potential nutrients (the ones contained in the hay)returning to the land whether you use feeders or not. By putting it all through a cows stomach you will achieve more harvestable gain in body condition or maintanence in cows which is why we are feeding cows by the way. If all the hay is consumed from feeders and all the manure returned to the pasture the effect on litter will be very similar to that of "wasting" a proportion of the feed by it being trampled into the soil. If you are managing your pastures properly you shouldn't really need an emergency supply of long fibre litter laid down - that indicates you have been over grazing.
Not suggesting you guys are guilty on the next count either but some folks have adapted the system because they are lazy - and they have not thought out the merits or actual cost of the practice.
It's a bit like swath grazing - it always amuses me how popular it has become, because it's easy. There are way more people swathgrazing on their operations than are managing their summer pastures with electric fences. It seems the attraction of mind numbing tractor work draws a lot of people to this system of "extending the grazing season" where they won't put in the brain work of planning and implementing a planned grazing system with regular cattle moves.

[PureCountry]

Iain I'm not going to try and win a debate on whether or not my system wastes more nutrients or places them in the soil faster or more efficiently, or which one equates into an increase in overall per acre productivity. I bale graze like I do because we have almost zero topsoil on most of our pastures. We are very careful with the pastures that do have some, and are trying to rebuild the rest, period. This is one of the sandiest areas of the province, and years of continuous grazing in generations gone by have made for near desert-like conditions in places. Putting as much organic material back in their as I can and using a cow's hoof to till it in and break it down is the fastest way I know to heal what's been hurt.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"I'm sorry then Rod I don't understand your earlier comment about the feet of the cattle tearing up the grass around the feeders. "

The soil was tore up sufficiently last winter to expose the shallow roots of the grass. Due to the nature of our spring weather with many freeze/thaw cycles through the months of April/May the grass was either frost killed or set well back. I checked that paddock today, and I see some of the black soil is gone and replaced by what I suspect is quackgrass, however my tame grass is gone.

Due to the high water table in most of this area, grass doesn't put down deep roots, so you have to be very careful about when, what and how you're grazing. I never thought I'd see sufficient topsoil damage in Dec/Jan to ever hurt grass, even tame stuff, but I was wrong.

Rod

[grassfarmer]

Now I understand Rod, that's a strange set of circumstances - I thought it would be frozen or snow covered enough to protect your pasture.

Purecountry I'm not trying to win the debate or prove you wrong or anything. I'm just expressing my opinion that some of the guys getting into bale grazing because it's the "in thing" may not have thought it through.
I would like to see an experiment where you took two groups of cows, put them in adjacent fields and fed them to appetite, one lot in feeders and one without. I know that it suits some folks to move fence once a week, or put all the bales out in the fall - whatever suits your system and lifestyle. What I want to know is how much more hay would you haul to the cows without the feeders ie how much is being trampled into the pasture. If it is proven that say 5000lbs more of hay per acre is not eaten by the cow you are adding 5000lbs more organic matter to the land. With hay at 2.5 cents a lb that is giving you a $125 per acre cost for the land improvement. That doesn't sound so cheap to me. Now these figures might be way wide of the mark but I'm guessing 5000lbs of trampled hay wouldn't look a lot spread over an acre. I think it probably would take that much to make a huge impact on the pasture next summer. I'm also not counting in any "hybrid vigour" type response that you might be getting from combining manure and the hay in one application. As I said I'm not convinced there has been enough research done on this - too often it is sited as a cheap,easy way to feed cows (which it is) with the bonus thrown in of huge land improvement at no cost. I query the fact that the land improvement comes at no cost. Or maybe I've just bought too much feed in my life at high cost and can't reconcile a system that deliberately "wastes" some as being something I'm comfortable with.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"I would like to see an experiment where you took two groups of cows, put them in adjacent fields and fed them to appetite, one lot in feeders and one without."

I did a similar experiment last year, grassfarmer. In that same paddock I bale grazed for 2 weeks, then used feeders for 2 weeks, to try and determine how much waste I was getting with bale grazing. I found that I could fill up feeders and have it keep the cattle for 3 days, whereas putting the same number of bales (as I put in the feeders) on the ground would last for 2 days.

I'd say it was about a 33% waste level. HOWEVER, before it discourages anyone, I was putting bales out on snow. I firmly believe that if you get them out on grass in the fall that they'd clean up considerably more as they dig down to the grass below. I think I'd be down to about 15% waste above using hay savers, which would bring me right in line with the waste level from cheap bale feeders. I'd also get the side benefit of not having to put straw down until I moved the stock into the pens for feeding. I've always hated baling straw, since its almost straight waste.

Rod

[PureCountry]

Glad you admitted the fact that your assuming 5000lbs would be on one acre, I was ready to hit the reply button as soon as I read that. HAHA! I admire how your mind works Iain. Most people would nod their head and my thread would go in one ear and out the other. You read it and immediately start crunching numbers. When I can get these pasture areas to a point where they're actually growing some forage, I'll start managing them more like you do your pastures. Use a high stock density to lay that litter over, then sufficient rest times in between. It's just that this darn old Battle River sand won't grow much more than creeping cedar, cactus and leafy sphurge. Pretty tough to get litter with that.

[cswilson]

Well you'd have trouble fattening a gopher on what my cows leave behind-cheap feeders are better at breaking legs and catching calves than saving hay as far as I'm concerned. We leave our back gates open and the bucking horses go back to the old paddocks and paw through where we've fed. Yes I run horses with my cows year around-it's amazing when they grow up together how little horse/cow bad interactions there are. I don't believe anybody has ever killed grass by grazing on it-we have spots look like they've been rototilled and the grass comes back strong-anybody whose tried to spike up a pasture and kill it knows what I'm talking about.