bulls

[cowman]

I'm sure we've all had the experience of buying a high priced bull who turned out to be a dog despite all the fancy numbers. So he goes down the road and we lose a lot of money. Everyone has some cows in his herd that are way above average. Why not take those cows, A.I. them to a good bull that has proven himself superior, and keep a couple of calves. This way you can be assured his mother has good feet, udder, temperment etc. If he doesn't do the job he's gone with little financial loss. You don't have to pour the feed to him because you have no one to impress. Use him two years and replace him with the next crop. You will get some inbreeding but not all that much. I've done this for the last ten years or so and I have bulls that get the job done with no problems. You can afford to have lots of bull power because they don't cost you an arm and a leg. My home raised cross bred bulls consistently perform better than my bought bulls!

[Burt]

So true. Am going through this right now. Have an expensive bull we brought form the mid west of US to Ontario. Seems to be giving nice calves, but the first crop and cant tell yet. So took one of the better AI bull calves from last year and trying him on a few young cattle. Live and learn. NBG Polled Herefords

[pandiana]

This is a subject dear to my heart. As with most things in the cattle business, its more complicated that it looks.
First, a bull supplies 50% of his genetics to approximately 15-40 (ave. 25) calves/year. The average cost might be around $2500.00 / bull which can be used 3 years or longer if used strategically (rotated) in a larger herd. His salvage value at the end of this period would be about $1200 or more. $2500-1200/3 or 6= about $225 to $430 (about $325/year ave/25 calves=approximately $13.00/calf) plus to cost of his upkeep. This does not seem like a onerous cost.
Second, when buying a registered bull from a reputable breeder using AI genetics, you increase the 'probability' of getting the kind of bull that you want for your herd. It is not a sure thing, or for that matter, is the cow's contribution to your calf a sure thing. Breeding top bulls to top cows will produce a very few top calves, some good calves and in all likelihood, some dogs. Buying your bull from a reputable breeder usually allows you to avoid the dogs. Also, you get the bull that looks like what you want i.e. has the phenotype. In addition, by using pedigree and EPD information you can dramatically increases the 'probability' that you will get the predictability and traits that will keep your herd profitable and in touch with market change.
Using AI as you suggested is a very good way to increase predictability. I also agree that using cows with good udders, feet and legs should be a top priority with commercial and purebred breeders alike.

[cowman]

I understand where you are coming from. I also know even "reputable breeders " have to make a buck and they don't if they are cutting all their bull calves. I think we all have had cows who just can't fail to have a "popper" no matter what they are bred to.
You say $13/calf is not a big deal. Well how about valueing your yearling at $1000 and selling him 2 years later at $1200. Each calf (50 calves) cost you -$4! A difference of $17/calf. Now on 50 calves that is $850 in your pocket. How can you lose? And you only feed him one winter after he is one year old.
I never could understand the double standard of crossbreeding. We are told that as commercial ranchers we must use crossbred females but not crossbred bulls? The economic advantage of the crossbred female is around 20%, I believe, so doesn't it stand to reason there has to be a kick with crossbred bulls? There are a lot of crossbred bulls being sold out there...Beefbooster, red max etc.
I sure can see how this system has affected my bottom line and would never go back to purebred bulls.

[pandiana]

My understanding of the principle behind purebred genetics, as applied to economic traits, is to increase predictability and prepotency through selection for these traits through many generations. Using bulls that have been selected traits such as muscle, milk, etc. increase the probability that his offspring will inherit these traits. The reason purebred bulls are used most often, rather than cows, is a matter of cost of course.
For example, using a purebred bull on a purebred cow herd of a different breed would be expected to produce maximum hybrid vigor and uniformity.
Using a purebred bull of a herd of cows from mixed origins would give you close to max hybrid vigor, depending on the cow origin, but little uniformity.
Using hybrid bulls is certainly a real option and as you pointed out is being exploited by many cattlemen today. The trick is to use them wisely. If you have a base cow herd of 50% angus and 50% hereford, for example, you could maintain maximum hybrid vigor and uniformity by using a non related hybrid angusxhereford bull. A quote from Hohenboken, Virgina Polytech states "In meat animal production, crossbreeding of one sort or another has been elected by most commercial producers. The majority of all slaughter beef cattle, sheep and hogs are crossbreds....crossbreds frequently will not exceed the better straightbred parent for individual traits such as survival, growth rate, feed efficiency and carcass merit. Very commonly, however, heterosis for all the traits...will cumulate and results in crossbreds with greater net economic merit than the best available straightbred.

As was the case in the hog industry, the cattle industry seems to be putting considerable emphasis on uniformity. The hog industry appears to be using a rigorous crossbreeding regimen originating from 4 or 5 purebred lines of seedstock.
Using well defined and documented purebred seedstock also allows you to use complementation in order to select for traits that you want to improve in your herd, whether it be milk, temperament, carcass value, weaning wt.

As you pointed out, the bottom line is where we are all coming from. Whatever system we use it must be economically viable. All systems are generalizations and exceptions abound. We do what works best for us within our environment and time frame.

[cowman]

You are 100% right! We all raise cattle for different reasons. Some guys want maximum production, some want minimum trouble, some maximum profits and some just want the prettiest cattle in the country. There is no wrong way, just whatever works for you. That's the beauty of the cattle business...can you imagine raising pigs or chickens because they look nice?

[pandiana]

With regard to crossbreeding in the above thread, I wanted to add that regardless of whether a bull is purebred or hybrid, I think a registered bull is the best option (except of course in your case where you use your own and have all the info you need). Many hybrid bulls are now registered allowing the cattlemen to utilize all the information available (pedigree, performance records, EPD's, and the tracking of convenience traits such as pigmentation and polled).

Pedigree information is essential to avoid inbreeding which results in the loss of performance, the opposite of hybrid vigor.

[cowman]

I'm not really knocking the purebred business and registered bulls. Obviously I use registered bulls in my A.I. program. And I really rely on the EPDs of these bulls when I decide what to use. I have found that ABS has the most reliable EPDs. If they say the birthweight will be low it is low, unlike some of the Canadian A.I. outfits!
I always try to raise what the market wants while trying to raise a cow that I can live with. I want a cow that gets the job done without a lot of expense of time or money. If I have to milk them, trim their feet, help them calf, have them try to kill me, or break the bank feeding them then I don't want them! I'll leave those high producers for the younger guys! My bottom line is I want a cow that takes care of herself and gets the bills paid. I consider crossbreeding the quickest and most efficient way of doing that.

[Shelly]

My only response to this conversation is when you are buying the high priced bull and the ABS AI'ed semen...have you actually gone and looked at the mother. Being in the purebred industry for most of my life and knowing the hype that high selling bulls bring I can not sympathize with those breeders (purebred or commercial) that do not do there homework....the business of buying a bull is not going to the "BIG SALE"or the semen catalog and buying the bull/semen that has numbers it has more to do with knowing what you need and finding that bull.....sometimes the best bulls are those bought private treaty...where you are welcome to look at the cow/sisters/daughters and the farm....knowing that information makes buying the RIGHT bull no matter the $ (PS sometimes Private treaty is cheaper because of the right sale service)

[cowman]

Of course you are right Shelly; the ideal situation would be to see both parents. However the ABS sires are selected for not only numbers but soundness by very capable cattle people, which is more than can be said about Canadian companies. In my experience, if ABS says this bull will pass on a certain characteristic, he will. Also a lot of the breed associations in the States have EPDs for udders and feet. So we can be fairly confidant that the A.I. sire we are using is generally sound and it goes without saying that we wouldn't be using a cow that isn't fit. Personally I don't have the time, or the desire, to be running around all spring, looking for that "perfect bull". And I don't really care what he looks like as long as he gets the job done. I've bought bulls at sales and privately. I do believe all breeders overfeed their bulls, especially those going to a sale. I don't blame them as this is how the system works and that's is how they make their money, but it is not a good system for the commercial man and it causes all kinds of problems. I guess the best way would be to buy the calf right off the cow and feed him yourself. I am a firm believer that a bull should never see a grain pail!

[pandiana]

I would agree that a 'fair price' is more likely to be found at a private treaty sale. My definition of a fair price is that which compensates the purebred breeder for all that homework that you speak about. We have acknowledged the importance of udders, feet and legs earlier in this thread. We are in total agreement. As I am sure you are aware, the extensive use of a poor bull in a purebred or commercial herd can do serious damage. The damage is not as extensive when using a terminal sire where all calves are sold. However, in purebred operations or commercial operations where replacements are kept it may take 5-7 years before you realize your mistake as your replacements come on line and feet or udders start to break down. This places a tremendous responsibility on purebred breeders to do their homework. Cow families are as important as good bulls in the production of superior genetics. Superior genetics is what the cattle industry is paying for when buying a registered bull.

An advantage of using AI sires is that many progeny, maybe hundreds, are available in a short period of time from which proofs are gathered as to their value. The bull and cow family may reside in another country, but you can be sure somebody has seen them at home or a show and are more than willing to share their assessment. Although bad feet and udders are not always evaluated by an EPD, it doesn't take long for this information to surface when talking to breeders that have used them. Also, as pointed out earlier, there are numerous parameters that must be juggled besides feet and udders. Serious cattlemen demand quality phenotype, performance, carcass value, predictabilty as well as calving ease. Bull pricing should reflect this effort.

[cowman]

You are probably right when you say a "fair" price compensates the breeder for all the work he has done, but in the real world a fair price is whatever he sells for in an auction. This is by and large how the commercial industry works. If there isn't sufficient compensation for your work you quit...that goes for purebred as well as commercial. Whether purebred or commercial we all got to make a buck and we do that by becoming more efficient. I have come to believe a lot of the purebred business is smoke and mirrors and not really based on the real world. Take a look at how the hog industry has evolved with a couple of big companies supplying all of the breeding stock....and they are very predictable genetics. Of course the cattle business is more varied and it probably has to be because of the different conditions they are raised under.
I do believe the beef industry is due for a change soon if we are to survive and compete with other meats. For the straight commercial man this would be buying a uniform package of predictable F1 heifers and using a terminal sire with all calves going to slaughter after being fed to the same finish. For this to work we need large integrated breeding stock companies and I guess there goes the independent purebreed breeder. This isn't something we should fight as it is the future, as it was in the hog and chicken business. It will be a big change and a lot of people will not be able or willing to change and that's okay because then they can move on to something else they might enjoy more. I think I will choose to quit but then I'm older and ready for retirement anyway.

[pandiana]

For those wanting another perspective on bulls, I would certainly recommend the article by Sean McGrath, 'Tools for Sire Selection' Sept 5, 2001 under the News Stand. Right on!. Also, another article by Tom Brink, ContiBeef, Breed Associations are Unsung Heroes at http://www.cattleinfonet.com/emerge/points to the changing beef industry and some things that will be required for progressive breeders to stay on top.