Two sides of the story...

[per]

I don't think I can add anything new that hasn't been said. I was just wondering where all the Natural Ruling Beef Producers have gone. What happened to our resident ABP apologist? Maybe if we were to see the other side of the storey one more time some of us could figure out why packer ownership of feeder cattle is a good thing.

Kato for PM!

[farmers_son]

Per: I presume by resident ABP apologist you meant me. I certainly do not consider myself to be an ABP apologist although I have on more than one occasion tried to keep things real and not lost in the imaginary solutions of whatever the fringe group of the day might be trying to convince producers should be public policy.

Re packer ownership….Grassfarmer and I have exchanged posts on this quite a few times and really it has all been already said. Big picture is if anyone out there really believes that banning packer ownership of cattle is the only problem Canadian producers have with a lack of competitive pricing of live cattle in this country and that if somehow our government (the same government that let the packers off the hook and said the packers did not have to show their books to a parliamentary committee looking into unfair pricing of live cattle during the worst days of the BSE crisis) would ever pass a law banning packer ownership of live cattle then by all means fall into bed with other wishful thinkers like the NFU.

However the reality is a lot different:

1. Our present government (yes the same government most cattle producers voted for last time and will vote for again and again and again and again ad nauseum) will never ever in a million years enact legislation banning packer ownership of live cattle. It just ain’t ever goin to happen.

2. All of us can think of at least 10 ways a packer could get around any kind of packer ban on ownership of live cattle. A law like that is just a joke and really just puts a band aid on a much larger problem. We simply do not need more band aids. We need real solutions to the real problem of a lack of competitive bids on our live cattle. COOL comes to mind...

3. It will be a dark day in hell before I go to the government and ask for legislation restricting who I can or cannot sell my calves to. In our small auction sometimes there just is not a lot of bidders. Some days there are only two who are putting their hands up and one of them is a packer buyer. I am sure there are people out there who wish that packer bidding on my backgrounded or weaned calves was not in the stands but those people are looking after their own interest, not mine.

4. Maybe the NFU thinks government is the farmers friend and if we only ask government will fix all our problems with a law for this and a law for that. Myself, I am becoming increasingly concerned that government, especially this government, is out to put an average sized producer like me out of business. We are being legislated and regulated to death already. The government is not our friend and we need to be wary of ever increasing government involvement in our industry.

5. Bottom line we are not going to fix the problems with the cattle industry in this country as long as the present government is in power. With all my heart I wish that were not true but that is how it looks to me. Suggesting we should go to this government and ask for more legislation to save us is simply posturing by the NFU and akin to asking the fox to save the hens.

Just my opinion and I don’t apologize for anyone or to anyone for having an opinion. My opinions are my own for what they are worth.

[BFW]

I think the NFU study hits on some very good points that we seriously need to look long and hard. Were it fails is it offers no real solutions to the problems the business faces. Farmers Son, I agree with you packer bans on ownership is not the solution to our problems. We must determine why, as you point out, that on some days there are only a couple of hands bidding for your calves and one is a packer buyer. Answer that and we will be on the way to that solution that we seek.

[kato]

Ok, so if the packers aren't allowed to own the cattle, doesn't it follow that someone else will own the feedlots currently owned by said packers? I can't see them just disappearing into nowhere. Wouldn't it follow that without the market manipulation, those same feedlots would have a better chance at profitability?

I know they'd find ways around it, with shell companies and cover ups, but in the long run that would all that extra maneuvering be worth it? Would they want to bother? Especially if the U.S. wasn't playing the game either?

As far as losing buyers for the cattle, isn't the very fact that no one can make money feeding cattle part of the reason for a shortage of buyers? Maybe the reason there are only a couple of bidders at the sale is because all the others have gone broke.

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing, isn't it?

And yes, I agree, it's time for a new government!

[grassfarmer]

Come now BFW - no solutions offered by the NFU? If you have read the document you know that isn't true. You may not agree with them but solutions are offered. Although both you and farmers_son are quick to dismiss the NFU document you still seem unable to grasp the simple concept of why there are is limited competition in the system. It is all clearly spelled out by the NFU - corporate concentration at processing and retailing levels eliminates competition. This lack of competition is then passed back down the chain - with the captive supply arrangements the big packers have where they feed cattle in their own lots, or get them custom fed for them in other lots the independent feedlots are squeezed out. How can they compete when there are no alternate places to get their cattle slaughtered? The packers have them over a barrel and they know it. Now instead of twenty buyers for calves you have two - no big mystery.

Packer ownership, captive supply and alternate packing capacity are all crucial items that need to be tackled if the situation for producers is to improve.

It's good to see your opinions don't change farmers_son, opting for the status quo because it's easier than trying to do something different. Saying it's a waste of time talking to Government because they are Tories and nothing will change. You say it is a waste of time going to Government yet at the same time you are hoping or dreaming that a few CCA/ABP lobbyists will change the US Government's stance on "Free trade" agreements.

We must do something - the status quo is not an option and I for one am tired of the complacency surrounding this issue and many others in Alberta.
I am reminded of the Abbie Hoffman quote;
"Democracy is not something that you believe in, or something that you hang your hat on. It's something that you do, you participate. Without participation, democracy crumbles and fails. If you participate, you win, and the future is yours."

Time to get off our asses, out of the coffee shops and participate - the future could be ours.

[per]

No offense to you or your opinion intended fs. I never asked or intended for an apology for ABP's stance. Just a defence of their policies which is what an apologist does. You bring the balance that this thread needed. That was all I was getting at. I am aware you speak for yourself but at times it is obvious that your opinion does parallel that of the ABP.

[BFW]

Grassfarmer, I have read the document and thought it was pretty good at pointing out the problems. Can" disagree too much. I know they offer some solutions just can't get my head around them. I will read it again.

[farmers_son]

The cattle industry in this country is in a genuine crisis. I do not think there is any argument about that. However we need real solutions to real problems.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking
“Magical thinking can occur when one simply does not understand possible causes… but can also occur in response to situations that are largely random or chaotic, such as a coin toss, as well as in situations that one has little or no control over, especially those one is emotionally invested in.”

I respectfully suggest it is magical thinking to propose left wing solutions when we ourselves have elected a very right wing government, possibly further to the right than the Republican Bush administration. The NFU might as well propose spinning straw into gold as a viable solution to the economic crisis facing the cattle industry. Might seem like a really good idea but as I said in my earlier post it just aint goin to happen.

It is magical thinking to believe that a packer ban on owning live cattle would make even one little bit of difference to the price of our live cattle. It is really magical thinking to believe our Conservative government would ever give the time of day to such a law.

And while there is no doubt that COOL is hurting our industry it looks more and more like it is magical thinking to believe our present government will do anything to improve our access to our NAFTA markets.

What is real is the fact that this government would sell its soul to the devil for 14 seats in eastern Canada. Harper spent the weekend in Quebec City glad handing at Carnival. Do you think he cares one bit about the cattle producer in western Canada? I think a great deal of the blame needs to be placed where it belongs. That is squarely on the shoulders of this Conservative government which has ignored the plight of the western Canadian cattle producer while toadying up to eastern Canada at every available opportunity.

Furthermore I think it is magical thinking to believe government is there to help us. They are not. Whether provincially or federally I have seen nothing to believe that government cares one bit about the family farm as both levels of government pursue policies designed to put the family farm out of business while promoting a handful of mega farms. Whether we are talking ALMA or CAIS government is pushing people like you and I out of business. And that is what is real.

[kato]

There's a whole lot of magical thinking going on everywhere these days. Steven Harper is also indulging in magical thinking by dreaming that he will ever gain popularity in Quebec. I think the final nail in that coffin was the whole Separatist/Socialist ranting that took place before he suspended Parliament.

That door is closed to him now. It would take a change of leadership to even give the Conservatives a distant hope at gaining any popularity in Quebec. And still he magically believes he can turn it around, while turning his back on the ones who elected him.

I agree that getting these guys to ever wake up and smell the coffee is going to be a tough job. In that case, the ones we should be speaking to are the opposition. We should be speaking loudly and with one voice. They are really the ones with the power here, and if we speak loud and long enough, maybe they will see the opportunity that the negligent Conservatives have handed them on a silver platter. In one quick vote they can toss the whole lot of them out on their butts. They know it, and the Conservatives know it. All they need is a reason.

This is a democracy. I guess the first thing we should tackle in this fight is the government in power that's so implicit in maintaining the status quo.

It's a good place to start.

[smcgrath76]

Don't forget the beaurocracy that is in power behind those in power. There is a reason that chaning governments (eg: liberal to conservative, etc.) often does not change the course of direction of programs. The people behind the people often remain unchanged or have a vested interest in the status quo.
As far as AB seeing a change of government, that is only likely if the seniors get ticked off by lack of health care or some other reason.
A lot of really good programs are going by the wayside in the interest of smoke and mirror shows.