Two sides of the story...

[BFW]

I think the NFU study hits on some very good points that we seriously need to look long and hard. Were it fails is it offers no real solutions to the problems the business faces. Farmers Son, I agree with you packer bans on ownership is not the solution to our problems. We must determine why, as you point out, that on some days there are only a couple of hands bidding for your calves and one is a packer buyer. Answer that and we will be on the way to that solution that we seek.

[kato]

Ok, so if the packers aren't allowed to own the cattle, doesn't it follow that someone else will own the feedlots currently owned by said packers? I can't see them just disappearing into nowhere. Wouldn't it follow that without the market manipulation, those same feedlots would have a better chance at profitability?

I know they'd find ways around it, with shell companies and cover ups, but in the long run that would all that extra maneuvering be worth it? Would they want to bother? Especially if the U.S. wasn't playing the game either?

As far as losing buyers for the cattle, isn't the very fact that no one can make money feeding cattle part of the reason for a shortage of buyers? Maybe the reason there are only a couple of bidders at the sale is because all the others have gone broke.

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing, isn't it?

And yes, I agree, it's time for a new government!

[grassfarmer]

Come now BFW - no solutions offered by the NFU? If you have read the document you know that isn't true. You may not agree with them but solutions are offered. Although both you and farmers_son are quick to dismiss the NFU document you still seem unable to grasp the simple concept of why there are is limited competition in the system. It is all clearly spelled out by the NFU - corporate concentration at processing and retailing levels eliminates competition. This lack of competition is then passed back down the chain - with the captive supply arrangements the big packers have where they feed cattle in their own lots, or get them custom fed for them in other lots the independent feedlots are squeezed out. How can they compete when there are no alternate places to get their cattle slaughtered? The packers have them over a barrel and they know it. Now instead of twenty buyers for calves you have two - no big mystery.

Packer ownership, captive supply and alternate packing capacity are all crucial items that need to be tackled if the situation for producers is to improve.

It's good to see your opinions don't change farmers_son, opting for the status quo because it's easier than trying to do something different. Saying it's a waste of time talking to Government because they are Tories and nothing will change. You say it is a waste of time going to Government yet at the same time you are hoping or dreaming that a few CCA/ABP lobbyists will change the US Government's stance on "Free trade" agreements.

We must do something - the status quo is not an option and I for one am tired of the complacency surrounding this issue and many others in Alberta.
I am reminded of the Abbie Hoffman quote;
"Democracy is not something that you believe in, or something that you hang your hat on. It's something that you do, you participate. Without participation, democracy crumbles and fails. If you participate, you win, and the future is yours."

Time to get off our asses, out of the coffee shops and participate - the future could be ours.

[per]

No offense to you or your opinion intended fs. I never asked or intended for an apology for ABP's stance. Just a defence of their policies which is what an apologist does. You bring the balance that this thread needed. That was all I was getting at. I am aware you speak for yourself but at times it is obvious that your opinion does parallel that of the ABP.

[BFW]

Grassfarmer, I have read the document and thought it was pretty good at pointing out the problems. Can" disagree too much. I know they offer some solutions just can't get my head around them. I will read it again.

[farmers_son]

The cattle industry in this country is in a genuine crisis. I do not think there is any argument about that. However we need real solutions to real problems.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking
“Magical thinking can occur when one simply does not understand possible causes… but can also occur in response to situations that are largely random or chaotic, such as a coin toss, as well as in situations that one has little or no control over, especially those one is emotionally invested in.”

I respectfully suggest it is magical thinking to propose left wing solutions when we ourselves have elected a very right wing government, possibly further to the right than the Republican Bush administration. The NFU might as well propose spinning straw into gold as a viable solution to the economic crisis facing the cattle industry. Might seem like a really good idea but as I said in my earlier post it just aint goin to happen.

It is magical thinking to believe that a packer ban on owning live cattle would make even one little bit of difference to the price of our live cattle. It is really magical thinking to believe our Conservative government would ever give the time of day to such a law.

And while there is no doubt that COOL is hurting our industry it looks more and more like it is magical thinking to believe our present government will do anything to improve our access to our NAFTA markets.

What is real is the fact that this government would sell its soul to the devil for 14 seats in eastern Canada. Harper spent the weekend in Quebec City glad handing at Carnival. Do you think he cares one bit about the cattle producer in western Canada? I think a great deal of the blame needs to be placed where it belongs. That is squarely on the shoulders of this Conservative government which has ignored the plight of the western Canadian cattle producer while toadying up to eastern Canada at every available opportunity.

Furthermore I think it is magical thinking to believe government is there to help us. They are not. Whether provincially or federally I have seen nothing to believe that government cares one bit about the family farm as both levels of government pursue policies designed to put the family farm out of business while promoting a handful of mega farms. Whether we are talking ALMA or CAIS government is pushing people like you and I out of business. And that is what is real.

[kato]

There's a whole lot of magical thinking going on everywhere these days. Steven Harper is also indulging in magical thinking by dreaming that he will ever gain popularity in Quebec. I think the final nail in that coffin was the whole Separatist/Socialist ranting that took place before he suspended Parliament.

That door is closed to him now. It would take a change of leadership to even give the Conservatives a distant hope at gaining any popularity in Quebec. And still he magically believes he can turn it around, while turning his back on the ones who elected him.

I agree that getting these guys to ever wake up and smell the coffee is going to be a tough job. In that case, the ones we should be speaking to are the opposition. We should be speaking loudly and with one voice. They are really the ones with the power here, and if we speak loud and long enough, maybe they will see the opportunity that the negligent Conservatives have handed them on a silver platter. In one quick vote they can toss the whole lot of them out on their butts. They know it, and the Conservatives know it. All they need is a reason.

This is a democracy. I guess the first thing we should tackle in this fight is the government in power that's so implicit in maintaining the status quo.

It's a good place to start.

[smcgrath76]

Don't forget the beaurocracy that is in power behind those in power. There is a reason that chaning governments (eg: liberal to conservative, etc.) often does not change the course of direction of programs. The people behind the people often remain unchanged or have a vested interest in the status quo.
As far as AB seeing a change of government, that is only likely if the seniors get ticked off by lack of health care or some other reason.
A lot of really good programs are going by the wayside in the interest of smoke and mirror shows.

[grassfarmer]

To be fair farmers_son it is not only a Conservative Government that has done nothing. I take it you are a Liberal and we don't need to look far back to see what happened when the Liberals were in charge in Ottawa. The vote to open the packers books was done under the Liberals was it not? Albeit it was the casting vote of Gerry Ritz that sealed the deal there. I understand the "untouchables" mandate given to CFIA which has undermined so many start up slaughter plants was given to them by Chretian.

So what is the solution?
You scoff at the NFU solutions, blame it on Federal and Provincial politicians, ignore the fact that we are being screwed by the packers and claim that nothing can be done by anyone at any level to resolve the situation. This is the biggest problem we have in the cattle industry - our "official" (ie levy funded) producer representative groups are full of people with your outlook. No ideas, no hope, no suggestions yet unprepared to step aside and allow people that have a vision of doing things differently to contribute. Still as long as they can draw their expenses from our checkoff dollars they'll keep doing it.

There was a good comment in Stockman grassfarmer this month about the opportunity for change in the current economic climate. I think it is very applicable to agriculture in Canada too.
"A crisis is too good a thing to waste - This is because it is only during times of crisis that democracies can cut through the inertia and make needed fundamental changes. In good times the lobbyists hired to preserve the status quo rule"

I guess we still need more crisis in the beef industry because the ABP/CCA still rule.

[vagabonddreamer]

i dunno you guys...its not only the beef/cattle side of ag that is in crisis....i have been spending some time on the commodity page at agri-ville...(good entertainment)...you think that the beef side has some characters and opposing views...go over and look at what the grain farmers are going through with CWB...they are WAY more millitant than we are...we look like moderates...and the tension has been building significantly in the last few days based on the annual CWB report...there are some REAL "good ol'boy" rednecks over there...who dont seem to preclude the use of some good old insurgency...maybe its what the entire ag sector needs?? vs

[kato]

I think other than the supply managed commodities, pretty much every sector of agriculture in this country, (and others also for that matter) has come to a breaking point.

Big agribusiness is like those slash and burn farmers in the rain forest. They plunder one country, then after they've finished milking it for all it's got to give them, they move on to the next. They've gotten most of what they want out of Europe. They're almost done with us, and already have their sights set on South America. Once they're done there, I would guess it'll be the former Soviet Union next.

One thing at the NFU meeting that I thought of, and they didn't mention was the fact that besides Cargill moving in, at the same time our government had been pressured into dropping the Crow, and the price of feed grains went so far into the tank that you couldn't see it any more. If not for the livestock side of the picture, there would have been a massive number of bankruptcies in the grain sector at the time. If I recall correctly, at the time, there was a significant livestock feeding lobby in Alberta in particular that was working very hard and strong to kill the Crow to get access to cheaper feed grains. I would bet that these same people were all lined up at Cargill's door with visions of dollar signs in their eyes.

Fine for Alberta, because your freight rates didn't change all that much, but boy, in Manitoba it was brutal. Oats were selling for less than the cost of freight, which meant that they were not selling at all. This is a lot of the reason why the livestock expanded so much, in this province, any way. And now both the grain and livestock industries have fallen into the situation where there is nowhere left to move.

Something's got to give. I don't care if we have a Liberal or Conservative government. I just want a government that's got the interests of the country ahead of the interests of certain politicians and their quest for power.

I think we all agree that we've hit the wall. But if we can't decide amongst ourselves what to do about it, no one else is going to step in and decide for us. We will be allowed to disappear and the rest of the country will move on without us. And big agribusiness will move on to the next target in their slash and burn philosophy. Will they leave anyone behind still standing? Who knows...

[farmers_son]

Grassfarmer...No, not a Liberal. Just a voter who knows that as long as we vote for the same party year after year, no matter what, our vote will be taken for granted and we lose any political clout. Which is clearly where we are today.

The political reality has changed. It used to be that our faithful support of the PCs was expected to be rewarded when that party formed a majority government. With the Bloc that all has changed and no party can form a majority any more.

There is widespread talk of the need for change but that has to include how we vote too. In minority governments the riding that is willing to vote either way is the riding that sets government policy. Yes primary ag producers are small in number but we have strength in that we have common concerns. It is not our small numbers that cause us to be ignored, it is our unwillingness to vote against the Conservatives. Even if you have to hold you nose in the polling booth you need to make your MP work for your vote and be prepared to vote for another party if the Government is not listening.

And they are not listening.