And you support ABP

[Sawbones]

" In 2006 discussions on the CAIS inventory transition initiative, ABP took the position that breeding cows should be excluded from the inventory transition calculation. It is difficult to understand how that position fits with the ABP mandate “to initiate and carry out projects to commence, stimulate, improve, or increase the production or marketing, or both, of cattle and cattle products.” As a result Alberta breeding beef cow owners have suffered almost an 800 million dollar equity loss since 2002, with no recognition of that loss by federal / provincial risk management programs."
It's time to look for a new voice for cattle producers

[per]

As far as I can figure there are still some producers that are happy with the ABP. I would be willing to let the ABP speak for them. As for me, I am with you Sawbones. The first step is to join a group that counts on members to voluntarily provide its own income. Step two is a refundable tax that can be sent to said group. I can't think of a better referendum on the work done (some good and some not so good) by the ABP.

[grassfarmer]

I notice you didn't put a question mark on your subject line Sawbones so I guess it wasn't even a rhetorical question? More of a dictatorial statement ala ABP "AND YOU SUPPORT ABP" This certainly seems to ring true of the organization - "even if you don't agree with our policies, would prefer a refundable or directional levy - you will pay the levy - AND YOU SUPPORT ABP!!"

[farmers_son]

Most readers of these threads know that I do support ABP however I am reluctant to respond to this thread because it reminds me so much of three old men sitting on a bench bitching about whatever comes to mind. They do not really want to hear anything different.

Whether you are old men suffering the ailments of advanced age or cattle producers suffering the ailments of protectionism and a weak economy I guess there is plenty to bitch about. The cattle industry in this country is going through some very serious times. I would suggest all the more reason for us to have a strong well funded voice provincially and nationally too.

And even though we are being challenged from several directions things can always be worse. Although no one is talking about it right now we are still just a step away from further trade challenges coming from the U.S. in the form of countervails and tariffs. In fact, as I see it, the only thing stopping a countervail challenge right now is COOL is serving as a very effective trade barrier. As crazy as it sounds the U.S. can use COOL to lower the price of Canadian live cattle and then turn around and say we are dumping cattle into the U.S. below cost. They will do it.

And when, not if, there is a countervail challenge who do you think pays the bill? ABP does and they have been building up a fund for just that purpose. So you bet your boots I support ABP. We simply cannot depend upon the NFU and their R-Calf buddies and other fringe groups like them to fight these trade challenges for us and we will have to fight them, mark my words.

Maybe the old guys on the bench have trouble remembering. How about this little reminder from their good friends R-Calf website:

http://www.r-calfusa.com/faq.htm

“R-CALF USA filed a live cattle and anti-dumping (selling below the cost of production) case against Canada and Mexico , and a countervailing (subsidy) case against Canada. The U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) in January dismissed the Mexico case. In the summer of 1999, the Department of Commerce (DOC) found that Canada was subsidizing the production of live cattle, but not at a high enough rate to warrant penalty tariffs. The DOC in July of 1999 also found Canada was dumping cattle into the U.S. at a high enough rate to warrant tariffs equivalent to the violation to be put on. The U.S. cattle market saw an immediate improvement in their markets.
Unfortunately, the ITC ruled in November of 1999, contrary to the DOC findings, that U.S. producers were not “materially injured” by the dumping of Canadian cattle and the ITC lifted the anti-dumping tariffs imposed by the DOC.
The U.S. cattle trade cases resulted in the largest trade case in the history of the U.S. and had more U.S. Senators testifying at the ITC hearing than any previous trade case. Over 27,000 cattle producers and 120 associations from across the U.S. signed on supporting the cases”.
End of paste.
Just who do you think fought that trade action. It was ABP and CCA. Not the NFU, not any of the other fringe bitch groups.

And just what is ABP anyway…just a group of cattle producers like you and I. The fact is anyone can be a delegate to ABP and they would be welcomed, there is so much work to do. And yes there will always be people who would rather sit back and do nothing and others yet who prefer to sit back and bitch. And that is alright too.

I tend to reserve my blame for the politicians. ABP and CCA too can lobby government for action but all too often government is simply not listening. Whether the reason for that is a smaller rural population, a federal government that is desperate for votes in Quebec or a provincial government that feels they have a mandate to do whatever they darn well please the agricultural lobby is finding it an uphill battle. Throw in a U.S. administration that has been getting away with more and more protectionism without any kind of meaningful response from Canada and we are being hammered from all directions. I simply do not see any positive results from the Conservatives “Get along with the Americans no matter what” policy.

But hey that is just me.

[jensend]

farmers_son you always tell us how things could be worse and all the bad things that could happen to make it worse. you never take it to the next step and offer any solution to the present situation or the potential looming disaster other than to move our cows south for calving! if abp and cca are so cognizant of the situation why do they not look for solutions other than blaming politicians? the abp and cca option of continuing to wait for the usa to be a fair trader (now there's an oxymoron!) clearly has been an abject failure and perhaps we should be putting much more effort into making other export options significant rather than incidental. throw away the implants, talk to potential importers and get on with it. you're so willing to bend over for the americans but so adamant against more reasonable assurances for other countries. face it, the americans aren't our friends. they know they can take the oil and gas without trading fair on anything else. read 'the post-american world' by fareed zakaria (cnn, newsweek) and see what the future trends will be.

[farmers_son]

Now lets get this clear….I do not know if ABP or CCA is blaming any politicians. I blame the politicians.

I do not think the Americans are our “friends” either and I agree they are taking our oil and gas without trading fair on anything else. U.S. protectionism threatens the entire global economy, not just the Canadian cattle industry. Our politicians are just waking up to that fact.

Still geography dictates that the only practical export market we have for live cattle is the United States. Which by the way is the world’s largest importer of beef and for that matter live cattle too. We do have a NAFTA agreement which if enforced would see us part of a North American market which we would be competitive in. We need market access to U.S. packers to even think about having competitive pricing for our live cattle.

Export markets for beef are slowly opening and in fact Canada has moved ahead of the U.S. in Hong Kong which is an important market for our non traditional meats. But without competitive pricing for Canadian live cattle from U.S. packers our Canadian packers do not have to pass along any increased profits they may enjoy from that improved market access. And indeed I think all would agree that is the case.

Bottom line our live cattle prices are determined in the U.S. minus a basis and they have been for a long time. It is not reasonable to suggest, it is dreaming big time, to even imagine that it will ever be any different no matter how many overseas markets we open up for Canadian beef. It is important to export beef but our live cattle prices are set in the U.S. minus that basis. I raise live cattle and that is what I get paid for.

And yes things could be worse and I do not believe we have seen bottom yet whether it is the economy, a looming and quickly worsening credit crisis, U.S. trade challenges, or having only one major packer left in this country (which is a real possibility). 2009 is going to be a defining moment in the future of the Canadian cattle industry and only time will tell if the cattle industry dissolves into a host of splinter fringe bitch groups or pulls together to come through it better and stronger.

[kato]

I'm not sure I like that term "splinter bitch group"... I prefer the term "alternative opinion". ;-)

We are stuck on a treadmill with no way off in sight, and whatever generates debate and fires people up enough to get them to maybe do something new or think outside the box can only be a good thing. We all agree what our problems are yet no one has a solution. We need to think and discuss and keep tossing ideas around until one sticks.

Like it or not, we do need the American market simply because our own is so dysfunctional that it is not a real market. There's no one to keep 'em honest here, as we have found out all to well since 03.

The bottom line is that over the past twenty years we've been fed the NAFTA line that if we did this and we did that, we'd have a market for our livestock. The only problem is that we are the only ones living up to NAFTA. We've been fed a lie, and a whopper at that.

It's time for our government to strap on a pair and tell the Americans that when they sign a trade agreement it is expected that we are not the only ones required to abide by it.

According to what they put their signatures on, the bottom line is that when beef comes out of a U.S. plant, it is American beef, regardless of where the original animal was born. We need to insist that they honour their word, and live up to their agreements. All they have to do is live up to the letter of the agreement, and they can label whatever they want. Go for it. With our blessing.

In defense of the CCA, today they called for the WTO challenge to be restarted. We need to get behind that, and support it. Like it or not, without the U.S. market we're such a captive supply that words don't describe it. And if the gouging continues, I also can see a countervail in the future. What else would we expect?

[Sawbones]

Farmer's son...I'd like to pass the buck and blame the politicians however the facts are that in Alberta, the politicians have put 2 billion into the cattle industry since 2003..If they'd received even a little bit of good advice, we'd be a little more prepared to develop those foreign markets..instead we get support for CAIS changes from ABP that cost producers millions... we get advice from ABP that we don't need packing plant alternatives...we get a lot of noise about opening up foreign markets but when Rancher's Beef was opening up Japanese markets and exporting into Europe and needed help, ABP did not offer any support (even verbal support would have helped)
I'm sorry but paying lawyers and putting up a few signs to raise producers moral doesn't cut it..not even close to the $15,000,000 that it's getting each year in check-offs