Something to talk about

[grassfarmer]

Mr Palletts quote from the manitoba cooperator link Kato posted.

"Were it not for the BSE border closures, he said, "we would be pricing and selling (Canadian beef) as an elite product (into the U.S.) right now." As it stands, with cattle producers in a financial bind and aging with fewer sons and daughters stepping in to replace them, "this country's going to potentially lose its ability to produce cattle."

I suggest he read the NFU Livestock Crisis document under "false causes"
I think it is pure nonsense to blame all this stuff on the Government - how about looking in the mirror - did every producer in the country take the appropriate measures to prevent BSE happening on their farms?

Put another way if we were to suffer a hoof and mouth outbreak next week would producers be seeking to sue the Government because they failed to prevent it? What are the biosecurity standards like on most producers farms currently? Exactly - yet the Government would be to blame? What about personal responsibility and this desire not to have Government involved in our businesses? It cuts both ways.

It's great fun to speculate where we might spend this windfall sum but in reality if it were to happen I suspect most producers would @#%$ it away on F-150s as the article suggests before they put it down to build producer packing plant infrastructure.

This is not "free" money either - it is taxpayer money. Is it appropriate to spend this much in the depths of a recession and a fiscal deficit? It seems most writers on here have been against the bailouts of the banking and auto sectors - is it OK if it's coming into our pockets though?

[kato]

The way I see it, yes the government has blame here. They knew the facts when they first started monitoring the imported cattle way back when. At a minimum those cattle should have been kept from the rendering plants, but they were not. This is negligent. They chose to just sit back and hope nothing would happen when it would have been so much easier to just deal with it at the time.

They knew the facts, and still sat on them rather than implement the total feed ban like we have now. I would think this was due to pressure from certain 'corporate' interests. No one wanted to give up profits back then on the thought that there might be a problem in the future. They'd rather wait until there was a problem, and let us pay the price if need be.

I don't think a farmer who went out and bought milk replacer back then should be expected to know what cattle were involved in the production of the product. I would say it's safe to assume that most people, myself included had no idea that milk replacer ever came close to contacting anything that had come from a rendering plant in the first place.

We were operating on the wrongful assumption that we had a safe supply for our cattle feed. We were mislead.

As for the taxpayer's money, quite frankly I don't feel guilty about cattle producers accessing a bit of it. Our government is bending over backwards right now to find ways to stimulate the economy. History has shown many times over that every time a dollar goes into a farmer's pocket, it turns right around and goes right back into the economy. We are very good at stimulating our economy with our spending, and have always been so.

There are five years now that we can all honestly say we have not been contributing much to the economy. I don't know about everyone else here, but on our place, since BSE, we only buy what we absolutely need, and don't buy anything just because we 'want' it. Bare minimum on everything.

The other thing is that the government is more than happy to shovel money at other sectors of the economy that are suffering due to the economic downturn. In fact they are looking for things to spend stimulus money on.

It seems to be the right thing to support other sectors who are having trouble due to no fault of their own or the government. So why is settling with cattle producers not the right thing to do? We're not in bigger trouble than normal due to any downturn of the economy. We're in bigger trouble due to negligence by our own government.

I totally agree that the other problems mentioned in the NFU report are real and need addressing, but the fact remains that things are much much worse than they would have been for us if this BSE thing hadn't happened. It's just another load we can't afford to bear, and it was preventable. If BSE hadn't strapped us so badly, would the strengthening of the big corporations happened in such an accelerated manner? I doubt it. They cashed in on our troubles and that made them even stronger, quicker.

The BSE debacle put us right in the palm of their hands and set us back light years. And the government was right at their sides, enabling them.

[vagabonddreamer]

actually grassfarmer i wonder...i think the problem is that we as polite canadians are FAR to transparent and honest...i KNOW for a fact...that the BSE problem hit the US before it showed up in Canada...there were FAR more cases there and the US government was either complicit in or irgnorant of (yeah right)..allowing the problem to be "literally" burried...we on the other hand bent over backwards to show the world our laundry which shifted the focus FULLY on us...and away from a far greater problem to the South...

not to say we should have covered up as did the US...but...i dont think it is a TOTALLY producer born problem...

rkaiser...how about some new RESISTOLS all round?? vs

[farmers_son]

Rkaiser...

Although I am uncomfortable about using the courts to address industry problems (really not the cowboy way) the fact remains that the class action suit opens the door for the federal government to inject a significant amount of much needed cash into the cattle industry without triggering any countervail challenges.

Bottomline, is the present government behind cattle producers or not? If the cattle industry was centered in Ontario and Quebec instead of Alberta and Saskatchewan, Manitoba I think we would be seeing a different response from Government without using the courts.

There was a cost to the cattle industry, that is clear. In hindsignt government clearly was negligent. I am not sure if that is proven in court if it opens the door for further trade challenges from the U.S. and what if any are the trade implications of this class action suit.

Still I wish there was another way to get governemnt to take action...We may rue the day the cattle industry took governemnt to court. Years from now it may come back to bite us in the behinds. Not a great way to solve problems but if the suit is successful the cattle industry will be glad to spend the money. Just wish we did not have to do it.

[rkaiser]

"Because of our humanitarian ideals and desire to be helpers in our emerging world, be careful not to fall into old patterns of helping others fulfill their needs rather than taking care of our own."

Time to take care of our own folks. We could be afraid of American trade action even though legal payouts are not countervail-able (if that is a word LOL) or position ourselves with this money to not worry about the Americans. Whether it be the boys who get the big cheques putting the final piece in the Canada Gold puzzle, or Canadian Celtic signing that natural beef patty deal with them there fellows in Dubai, we have the knowledge and capability to use this money wisely as well as buy them new Resitols and "Toyota" (LOL) pickups.

[kato]

Very good comment..."I am not sure if that is proven in court if it opens the door for further trade challenges from the U.S. and what if any are the trade implications of this class action suit."

I agree that if this goes to court, the stakes are very high on all sides. What if the government lost? Could other countries or businesses sue for damages caused there? Would there be trade sanctions? I would think anything could happen.

To me, this only makes the case for settling out of court even stronger. In fact, looking at other potential problems arising from a decision in our favour, it would seem that settling out of court is the ONLY sensible action.

The fact that Ottawa fought so hard to stop the case from going forward is probably an indication that they don't feel their side of the case is as strong as ours.

This may be cause for hope. They are going to have to think they have a locked in verdict to risk going ahead with this. We on the other hand, have nothing to lose. The worst that can happen to us has happened so many times in the past five years that we've lost count. Just when we think we've seen it all, it happens again. That's our new normal. So what the heck? Go for it.

[rkaiser]

Go for it is right Kato... And why the hell not. My eyes are going to be on the end product from now on. Any distraction concerning the why or how or what we do with it doesn't matter so much as putting a bunch of lost dollars back into the pockets of the wonderful people in our industry. I know that it will allow me to finish my career in the beef cattle industry and that is all that realy matters to me.

[vagabonddreamer]

fortunately for the rest of us...there are people like F_S and rkaiser and kato and GF...who have their fingers on the pulse (no pun intended)...while all may not agree on the concept of this discussion...it is becoming VERY evident that there will be NO assistance from Govt...and i dont WANT financial assistance...i have had far too much stupid pride all my life to ever accept handouts...i just want a workable environment where i can translate hard work and perseverance into a comfortable living... for my family...

what i need to know from those of you who are smarter than i am...is what do we need to do to facilitate this??

oh...if i get a new resistol out of the deal that would be a bonus...kato...we could exchange yours for a lovely sunday bonnet if you like...lol...vs

[kato]

Don't need a Sunday bonnet. I already have a goofy gardening hat that I'm quite attached to. LOL

What I got from what's in the article, and what's been said, is that cattle producers should be talking to their government representatives and letting them know that we all want an out of court settlement. Apparently this isn't just the federal government, but any kind of government official who could carry the concerns up the ladder.

I know Mr. Palette has read and replied to posts on this site before, so maybe he's reading now? Some insight from him would be nice.

[grassfarmer]

Each to their own but I think this is just wishful thinking and wrong on so many fronts. Really why are the Canadian government any more responsible than anyone else? can't they just turn around and sue the UK government for their mismanagement of BSE - where does it end?
It also provides a legitamacy to the scientifically accepted causes of BSE which I don't agree with.
As for how producers would spend their money if a big payout results, again I think there is some wishful thinking going on. My prediction would be that we would not see producers unite and pool the money to build producer packing plants rather producers would bid it into land and cattle prices to see if they could get a step ahead of their neighbors in the commodity game. Our plans for producer packing infrastructure didn't really fail through lack of funds - it was lack of producer support if we are honest and that hasn't changed.
And after all this life goes on - with all the same problems as before of corporate concentration etc. I would rather producers lobby their politicians for action on the root causes of our current problems rather than lobby for what would amount to just another short term handout.