4H calves

[dfarms11]

Here's a question for all you 4H people. What are we doing wrong with our calves. They just don't seem to be growing like others. What is the secret to picking the right calf? Or feeding the calf? Am I supposed to have the calf weened and on feed weeks before weigh in? If its genetics then I will have to start bringing in better ones but it has to be more than that. Our calves only gained between 2 and 2.5 pounds per day. All the big gainers made 3.5-4.0. Are they using implants or what? If anyone here could help me with this dilemma I would greatly appreciate it.

[per]

I'm not likely able to help you but am curious what your feed regiment is.

[kato]

And breeding. It can make a big difference.

Once you know your average gain, which can be quite predictable year from year, you can look at a calf, get a picture in your mind of what he needs to weigh to grade, then work backwards and pick a calf with a fall weight that will fit. It worked for us.

When our boys were in 4H, we had our achievement at the end of June. This meant that a Feb. born calf would be 16 months old on the big day. We were always careful to avoid the bragging rights that came with the biggest calf in the fall, because that meant they were way to big on achievement day. We'd pick a middle of the road calf.

You don't want to have to be holding them back, and you also don't want a kid panicking a month before achievement and overfeeding and making them sick. We had kids in the club who did this, and it's a heart breaker to see a club calf go down on achievement day from grain overload.

[vagabonddreamer]

ahhhhh...dfarms11....the AGE old question...i know in our club...there is always wonderment at the fact that some of the larger cow/calf/feedlot operations...produce steers that are in effect "finished" in a year or slightly less...we have a "weigh-in" day in March or thereabouts...so most of the steers that show up are JUST a year or maybe slightly less...and its AMAZING not only how some of them are almost OVER finished...ie...1350lbs at a YEAR old...(they just coast until July at that point)...but how their FRAME size is essentially that of a fully mature animal...in JUST a year...i can see an animal gaining well on a perday basis...but it is very hard to convince me that the bone structure and frame size can be THAT different among animals...

we have tried different programs over the years...and approaching the finishing process in a "natural" (ie without implants)...manner we have been able to average 3-3.75/lb day growth...

we feed twice a day...the morning feed is grain ONLY...the evening feed is grain and 30% (daily ration) of hay...you CANT let them eat too much hay...(to the point you are pushing internal damage)...unfortunately 4-H isnt about the reality of raising beef for commercial purposes (which is really what it is supposed to emulate)...it is about having the largest animal...there has maybe been a SLIGHT shift over the last couple years towards more commercialy sized finished animals...but the grand champions are ALWAYS one of the largest NOT necessarily the most aptly finished...

just my observations over the years...vs

[grassfarmer]

Hopefully by the time my daughter is big enough to handle a 4H steer they will have evolved to having a "natural or grass-fed class" which would probably entail it being held in the fall. I have no interest in bringing kids up on the industrial model where you are pushing them so hard you get into that risky zone of killing them vs getting the highest gain. What does that teach a kid? to rely on the input pimps with their grain, implants and magic potions.

[vagabonddreamer]

ABSOLUTELY GF...i hope when you get involved with 4-H...you lobby HEAVILY in the direction of natural/grassfed...i spoke with a member of the executive of of our regional 4-H board...wanting to include a "natural" class...she indicated they would not do this as the bigger players would not want to "not enter that natural class"...so its easier to go along in veiled ignorance...than it is too rock the boat...

and you are absolutely correct about grain pimps...AND the fact that 4-H is not fulfilling its mandate in preparing kids for the commercial marketplace...AND i agree on the folly of "pushing" the projects to the detrement of their health...but unless you are prepared to implant its the only way to get close...vs

[dfarms11]

They have been getting free choice hay and then as much barley as they can handle. From whats been said, it sounds like that is totally backwards! It's always worked just fine for me backgrounding my own calves.

[perfecho]

dfarms.....keep on trying!
I lead a small group of 4-H members in our area. We do not use implants and our focus is on overall animal care and handling. I also stress to some of the members that use animals that may not finish in the "target" range, consumers requirements are not the same. Look for the buyer who wants less marbling, or who wants a smaller framed animal, etc. They are out there. Maybe even find your buyer first and raise it according to their needs......(part of our club is marketing)
Anyways I will run down some basics...believe me, I am no expert, but I took my girls to 4-H so I could learn;-) Last year my daughter did take the champion banner with an Gelbvieh/Angus cross.....I believe because he as finished (hard) and she had him looking "full" on show day as well as properly groomed and good on the halter.

We are usually around 210 days of feeding. We had a feedlot fellow out to see how they "do it" and to sum up, "you want to take your animal from 20% grain/80% hay at the beginning and work him up to 80% grain/20% hay to finish" If you get there, make sure to use a buffer, (limestone) with the grain.
For us, we always have free choice hay. (Some people restrict hay if they are pushing hard.) Good hay should gain 2 lbs a day without grain. We start our steers on about 5 lbs of grain, (oats/barley or just barley) and every few days increase this by a lb or so. It is best to feed 2 or more steers in a pen so they compete for feed. We get them up to about 20lbs of grain for 2-3 months and the last 2 months about 25 plus. Remember to use a buffer....it is a lot of grain.
For ease, barley works, but putting in molasses or corn (or both) makes it more interesting for the steer. Minerals, etc should also be included If you find yourself a little behind in performance, corn has some added punch and they like it, so use more corn if "catch up" is the game or to if they are not eating as much as you would like. (Some even “cook” the corn….but hey….this is supposed to be fun,)
We do feed twice a day...and the real jocks would insist on the same time every day. We are a little more laid back here, heck last year when my daughter won, we had gone to once a day feeding. (Sometimes when you are really hungry you tend to overeat...or at least I do)
Hope some of this helps, if you have any questions please e-mail me at perfecho@aol.com with your phone number and we can chat. You can also google “feeding the show steer” or ”feeding the 4-H steer“ and you’ll get lots of info.
The biggest thing is to have fun."Learn to do by doing".(Had to through that one in their;-) Remember, the judge is just one opinion on one day.....how many times do we go in our herd and suddenly see a "new" favorite.
Stay tuned for next month's meeting "picking the right calf!" ;-)

[perfecho]

Long winded guy back again.......we start with a calf around 700 lbs and depending on frame score shoot for the 1350lb market weight with 3% shrink....and the added stress of show day, approx 1400 lbs.

[grassfarmer]

"Good hay should gain 2 lbs a day without grain."
Sorry but I'm not buying that one perfecho. I have never seen hay of a quality that would give you 2lbs of gain without grain. I don't believe it is technically possible for them to take in enough nutrients to do that off hay - volume would be the limiting factor.

[kato]

We used to do it a little differently. Maybe this is not what the intention of what a 4H calf is supposed to be, but our sons' steers stayed with the rest of the steers eating out of the self feeder with everybody else until everybody else was sold as a short keep. Then they stayed there by themselves until they were gone. The boys were part of taking care of the bunch of them, and their calves were not treated any differently than the rest, other than the halter breaking adventures we all love so well. LOL.

Back in the day, we worked up to feeding free choice barley with minerals, salt, and buffer added along with free choice hay or straw depending on the hay situation for the year. When the cattle were used to this they regulated their own intake very well, and seemed to manage to express their potential quite nicely.

The one time we segregated a steer for special feeding was when the younger son had caught a calf in the calf scramble at the Winter Fair in Brandon, and had to show a finished animal at the end of March the following spring. That one was fed alone in the barn, and wouldn't you know it, when the cows started coming in to calf he fell in love and went off feed for a whole week. It made the difference between Champion and Reserve according to the judge. He and the other top steer were that close. He still did us proud though, because in the show world, white steers didn't usually top the class. He was only beat by a Limo.

We used to tell the boys, it was only one judges opinion on one day, and that today's winner might be at the bottom of the class tomorrow. We found over the years that come sale time, other than the Champion and bragging rights that went with it, most of the steers did not sell in an order of price that matched the order of placing in class. The size of the cheque is actually the deciding factor of who really wins. Just like in the real world.

grassfarmer, if you have some neighbours and friends who are also interested in grass finished 4H steers, there's nothing to stop the formation of a club dedicated to just that. Nowhere is it written in stone that a 4H steer must be grain fed. That's not the intent of 4H, no matter what some overeager parents might say. ;-)

[perfecho]

GF....I did explain, I was no expert.
However, I spoke to my main man who is a nutritionalist, has his masters and has been connected with cattle all his life. His words were "it can be done during the right point on the growth curve with exceptional hay, but not on heavy fats." He also stated most people do not put up exceptional hay due to time constraints and weather.
Also, in the last Cattleman I believe, was a trial that showed results of 2lb/day gain on swath grazing ...although technically I guess, there is grain there.
Anyways, perhaps 2lbs is a bit of a stretch for most, but it is doable.....

[ado089]

When are you halter breaking? That can be as detremental to weight gain as anything. I would suggest get it done in Nov. or wait 2 weeks before the show. Late castrating really sets them back too. I use to start a dozen or so pottentials on free choice whole oats in July as calves, and keep that going until weaning. Adding a little wheat in the fall to early winter adds alot of muscles and size because of the protein. From feb forward I would get them switched over from oats to barley about 8lbs per day fed twice a day. By May you want to be up around 25- 30lbs day. 3/4 of a pail twice a day, corn helps too and lots of good clean freshwater. My little secret to really make them pop is if you have a little patch of green grass in the spring let them graze for about an hour/day, not too long or they fill up but it's way better than hay. Alot of calves also don't like city water (if your show is in the city) over a 3 day show you'll lose alot of weight so either bring your own water or start adding molases to the water at home for a few weeks before the show then you can add it at the show to mask the chlorine. I was consitantly selling 1275lb march born pure bred herefords, a couple of champs in there.

[smcgrath76]

It is tough one. We had the same type of calves every year and the show trend would swing by us over time moving calves up or down the class. A 650-700 pound steer in Nov. needs some punch in their diet by Christmastime to make an Early June show with hard cover.
When I was younger, all the 4-H calves had bluetags and we got the grading data back on them over the summer. Often the winner isn't.
Do a heifer project. The project expands over time and helps a lot of kids pay for school. Although we learned May calving doesn't work there, it is closer to the reality of the cow business.

[kato]

I agree about the heifers.

Especially for a young starter 4H'er, a heifer is a lot easier to have the first year, because they don't have to sell it.

We gave both of our sons their first heifers,and by the time they graduated, they both had the money for school saved up from the proceeds of these heifers' progeny and from show steers.