Burbert Emerges From His Cave

[Fransisco]

And as far as cartels go even OPEC can't control the price of oil. Anybody that thinks the Board can do it with 4% of world wheat production and 8% of barley has been into the glue again. Then there's durum, oh yes durum what's the PRO on durum again?

[Hopperbin]

Wow Burbert careful what ya say. Dems cud be fighting words. Why are you talking strange anyway?

[Fransisco]

The grain companies only send what they have to, if they send stuff they're not supposed to there'd be hell to pay.

[Hopperbin]

They send payment to who info. I could be wrong but what is wrong with that anyway?

[Hopperbin]

OK I bet someone sued them. What a crock.

[bucket]

If I can't know what they sell my grain for then maybe my personal info could remain a state secret as well.

[Hopperbin]

So is this why Agstar does not make any money? He somehow does not claim CWB payments? While I pay average 60,000 in corporate income taxes why should some board supporter not claim his income?

[chaffmeister]

OPEC is voluntary (For example, Indonesia dropped out earlier this year).

De Beers controlled the diamond industry at one time but no longer. Their monopolistic strategies and relationships (cartel) was not sustainable.

SunKist is a very successful voluntary producer-owned coop.

<i>"Currently representing about 6000 members, Sunkist is a not-for-profit corporation, with all profits returned to the growers. Sunkist is the largest marketing cooperative in the world's fruit and vegetable industry, and is one of the 10 largest marketing cooperatives in America."</i>

Ocean Spray is a very successful voluntary producer-owned coop.

<i>"We're an agricultural cooperative, meaning we're owned by a large group of cranberry growers throughout North America. As of right now there are about 600 of us.

We're the leading producer of canned and bottled juice drinks in North America. And have been since 1981.

Ocean Spray posted fiscal 2008 gross sales of roughly $1.9 billion.

We have more than 2,000 employees worldwide."</i>

[chaffmeister]

The CWB single desk (monopoly) is the invention of government policy and remains only because of government policy. You may think farmers control the CWB, but no major changes can be made unless the government of the day accepts it and changes the act.

Remove the government completely from the equation and you must remove the single desk as well.

How can you have a mandatory “private” marketing coop?

[Fransisco]

The free market may not be perfect but it's never had to put an iron curtain around people to keep them from leaving.

[dmlfarmer]

One thing to remember is Sunkist and Ocean Spray and every other co-op only works on behalf of their members. If the CWB was changed to a similar format, you have to assume it would only be responsible for marketing the grain of those are CWB co-op members. That means any growers who choose not to market through the CWB would have to market ALL of their grain outside the CWB. Furthermore this means the 60% of the grain sales which are currently made by the CWB (assuming 40% are made by accrdited exporters) could only be filled with grain from CWB producers. Yet the CWB could still compete with non CWB farmers to fill the 40% sales made by the accredited exporters. (And given the massive amount of grain the CWB would still have, there isn't an accedited exporter who would refuse to allow the CWB to compete to supply the grain the exporter needs) Instead of supporting prices for individual producers, the farmers who opt out will have lost 60% of the market plus have to compete with the CWB for 40% of the market that remains.

Second, once you opt out of a co-op you may not be allowed back in. Why would a group of people seeking to sell cooperatively want anyone in the coop who does not want to share high prices and only wants the coop to sell their grains when they cannot do it on their own? While the door is open to sell outside the board, it is likely a one way door - once you walk through it you will never be able to return.

Third, if even only those producers who have voted to get rid of the board entirely in the plebicites opted out, could the Northern US markets and their published higher prices, handle that amount of grain flowing south without losing the price premium or causing an uproar by Northern US farmers and a resulting trade action to support prices and limit Canadian grain deliveries? I do not know, I am just asking.

While the voluntary, co-op idea sounds good, I would really be interested in knowing how many of you would actually opt out of the CWB if it meant you could never sell another bushel of wheat, durum or barley through the board again.

[dmlfarmer]

One thing to remember is Sunkist and Ocean Spray and every other co-op only works on behalf of their members. If the CWB was changed to a similar format, you have to assume it would only be responsible for marketing the grain of those are CWB co-op members. That means any growers who choose not to market through the CWB would have to market ALL of their grain outside the CWB. Furthermore this means the 60% of the grain sales which are currently made by the CWB (assuming 40% are made by accrdited exporters) could only be filled with grain from CWB producers. Yet the CWB could still compete with non CWB farmers to fill the 40% sales made by the accredited exporters. (And given the massive amount of grain the CWB would still have, there isn't an accedited exporter who would refuse to allow the CWB to compete to supply the grain the exporter needs) Instead of supporting prices for individual producers, the farmers who opt out will have lost 60% of the market plus have to compete with the CWB for 40% of the market that remains.

Second, once you opt out of a co-op you may not be allowed back in. Why would a group of people seeking to sell cooperatively want anyone in the coop who does not want to share high prices and only wants the coop to sell their grains when they cannot do it on their own? While the door is open to sell outside the board, it is likely a one way door - once you walk through it you will never be able to return.

Third, if even only those producers who have voted to get rid of the board entirely in the plebicites opted out, could the Northern US markets and their published higher prices, handle that amount of grain flowing south without losing the price premium or causing an uproar by Northern US farmers and a resulting trade action to support prices and limit Canadian grain deliveries? I do not know, I am just asking.

While the voluntary, co-op idea sounds good, I would really be interested in knowing how many of you would actually opt out of the CWB if it meant you could never sell another bushel of wheat, durum or barley through the board again.

[chaffmeister]

I’m fascinated by your assumptions.

I don’t assume a voluntary CWB would only be responsible for its “members”. Why would it have members?

And I don’t know where it’s written that once you opt out, you couldn’t get back in.

I buy gas for my car and truck at the local Coop. I’m a member because I choose to be and I buy my gas there because I get a competitive price and an annual patronage rebate cheque. The Coop also sells gas to non-members – they get the same competitive price but no rebate cheque.

You assume that because the CWB now sells 60% of all wheat sales without an AE, its sales would still be 60% of the market if voluntary. I suggest that a voluntary CWB’s sales would be equal to what they get from their “members” and/or other “suppliers”.

It’s interesting that you feel a voluntary CWB would have a “massive amount of grain” to sell. It’s refreshing to hear someone suggest that a voluntary CWB would have that much support from farmers. The Single Desk crowd would like you to believe that it wouldn’t.

This idea that if you don’t support the CWB you must want to sell into the US is terribly misguided. Why not offshore? In a voluntary market, the grain companies would provide elevator bids for wheat. The grain they buy would go either offshore, to the US or to a domestic buyer – just like with other open crops, like canola.

[dmlfarmer]

chaff: the local coop you refer to is a purchasing coop. Its purpose is to purchase gas for its members and trys to minimize the costs of a commodity. )Bulk buying and selling to non members assists in this goal) The CWB, just as sunkist or ocean spray, or the dairy coops are selling coops that try to maximize value of a commodity. (Controlling production, charging membership fees or quotas, and limiting competition are widely practised) They are totally opposite, with different purposes and opposite trading tactics.

As far as the rest of my assumptions - I honestly have no idea and that is why I am asking the questions. You have to start somewhere, so I started with the present situation and am asking you which way will it go. So instead of attacking my assumptions, what is your prediction?

[dmlfarmer]

chaff: the local coop you refer to is a purchasing coop. Its purpose is to purchase gas for its members and trys to minimize the costs of a commodity. )Bulk buying and selling to non members assists in this goal) The CWB, just as sunkist or ocean spray, or the dairy coops are selling coops that try to maximize value of a commodity. (Controlling production, charging membership fees or quotas, and limiting competition are widely practised) They are totally opposite, with different purposes and opposite trading tactics.

As far as the rest of my assumptions - I honestly have no idea and that is why I am asking the questions. You have to start somewhere, so I started with the present situation and am asking you which way will it go. So instead of attacking my assumptions, what is your prediction?