Do we really want to go there?

[parsley]

liberty,
In the eighties, the asbestos people bought cattle, and their business was booming.

I don't have to tell you what happened to their business. heir lifestyle.

I so very much regret that their riches and their lifetyle tumbled.

But I learned something.

Caution has worth.

I am science oriented. And a foodie.

Caution in both is prudent.Pars

[burnt]

You know liberty, you make some good points. Maybe I do have a sour view of life. Maybe I am also a bit of a realist, I don't know. If I knew how to come up with the right answer and approach every time, I would be a lot wealthier than I am and maybe then life would be simpler.

I also believed at one time that every new innovation was a step forward and embraced it vigorously! The bible was growth, innovation and efficiency. But then I was left to wonder why I still had to keep struggling to stay ahead of the curve.

I got tired of having to watch my back so some other "aggressive" sonofabitch wasn't trying to take what was mine. I also had to learn that I couldn't have everything that I wanted if I was going to be able to live with those around me.

One thing that I cannot reconcile with is that fact that some technologies become so invasive that they cause the failure of perfectly legitimate, related segments of the industry. How will you react when your part of the industry is the one that gets pushed out because of your neighbor's abitious pursuit of the newest PlayStation?

It all became very clear to me what was happening as I sat at a growers meeting sponsored by - you guessed it - a fertilizer company. The speaker's solution was to up the inputs, it's the silver bullet! The agribusiness folks have us on a treadmill that starts to turn so fast that one no longer has time to think objectively, just respond reflexively.

The guys who listen to them are still growing, and they take their holidays regularly, although sometimes it involves a trip to the mental hospital - seriously.

So liberty, you just go grab that tiger by the tail and by god you better make sure you have a good grip because if you slip just the slightest bit, you know what will happen.

Of course you are at liberty to choose to let go any time, aren't you? Or are you?

[liberty]

I have to respond to some of Burnt's comments:

"But then I was left to wonder why I still had to keep struggling to stay ahead of the curve."

As opposed to what? Life itself is a struggle. There will always be a curve that we need to keep ahead of. You only have to examine the history of the former Soviet Union to understand what happens when a society gets rid of the innovation curve and makes it mandatory for everyone to sit and wait for permission to be inventive. That turns the struggle to innovate into a struggle to survive at a subsistence level. Which woul you prefer?

"I got tired of having to watch my back so some other "aggressive" sonofabitch wasn't trying to take what was mine."

I don't know what you mean by "mine". If you get angry about other farmers outbidding you for land or something like that, that's an inappropriate response. Your competitors do not owe you anything. They have no responsibility to desist from competing with you so that you can ease your struggles. Get used to it. This is all part of living.

"How will you react when your part of the industry is the one that gets pushed out because of your neighbor's abitious pursuit of the newest PlayStation?"

Equating new farming technologies with Playstation is an obvious attempt to smear innovation. Farmers do not invest in GPS and autosteer because they love toys; they do so because it improves their productivity and makes money for them.

[burnt]

Well liberty, it is pretty clear that we are pursuing two completely disparate lines of thought.

And one clarification - I was in no way referring to GPS or auto steer - it was simply a poorly chosen figure of speech to illustrate our natural inclination to be a consumer of the latest gizmo to hit the market.

And you have absolutely no right in judging whether or not my response is appropriate or not. Based on your words and ideas, you would fit the mold of the neighbor who inspired that reaction.

And if you think "life is a struggle" now, as you put it, wait until you see the effects of short-sighted, greedy actions spurred by glittering promises of better returns, yields,etc.

But by then you might have made your millions and you won't be affected . . . so who cares, eh?

[burnt]

Also, liberty, you failed to answer the question about how "you (will) react when your part of the industry is the one that gets pushed out . . . "

[parsley]

edited by parsley beccause of length:

"Monsanto seed business role revealed

ADVANCE FOR MONDAY Dec. 14; chart shows Monsanto Co.'s soybean and corn
AP - ADVANCE FOR MONDAY Dec. 14; chart shows Monsanto Co.'s soybean and
corn acreage since
Related Quotes Symbol Price Change
MON 83.24 0.14
MSFT 30.18 0.07
SYNN 0.00 0.00
By CHRISTOPHER LEONARD, AP Agribusiness Writer Christopher Leonard, Ap
Agribusiness Writer - Sun Dec 13, 1:45 pm ET

ST. LOUIS - Confidential contracts detailing Monsanto Co.'s business
practices reveal how the world's biggest seed developer is squeezing
competitors, controlling smaller seed companies and protecting its dominance over the multibillion-dollar market for genetically altered crops, an Associated Press investigation has found."

"With Monsanto's patented genes being inserted into roughly 95 percent of
all soybeans and 80 percent of all corn grown in the U.S.,...." .

"Monsanto's methods are spelled out in a series of confidential commercial licensing agreements obtained by the AP. The contracts, as long as 30 pages, include basic terms for the selling of engineered crops resistant to Monsanto's Roundup herbicide, along with shorter supplementary agreements that address new Monsanto traits or other contract amendments."

"The company has used the agreements to spread its technology - giving some 200 smaller companies the right to insert Monsanto's genes in their
separate strains of corn and soybean plants. But, the AP found, access
to Monsanto's genes comes at a cost, and with plenty of strings attached."

"one contract provision bans independent companies from breeding plants that contain both Monsanto's genes and the genes of any of its competitors, unless Monsanto gives prior written permission - giving Monsanto the ability to effectively lock out competitors from inserting their patented traits into the vast share of U.S. crops that already contain Monsanto's genes."

"Monsanto's business strategies and licensing agreements are being
investigated by the U.S. Department of Justice and at least two state
attorneys general..",

"The practices also are at the heart of civil antitrust suits filed against Monsanto by its competitors, including a 2004 suit filed by Syngenta AG that was settled with an agreement and
ongoing litigation filed this summer by DuPont in response to a Monsanto
lawsuit."


"We do not believe there is any merit to allegations about our licensing
agreement or the terms within," said Monsanto spokesman Lee Quarles."

"We now believe that Monsanto has control over as much as 90 percent of
(seed genetics). This level of control is almost unbelievable," said Neil Harl,... Iowa State University "

"The upshot of that is that it's tightening Monsanto's control, and makes it possible for them to increase their prices long term."

"At issue is how much power one company can have over seeds, the foundation of the world's food supply. Without stiff competition, Monsanto could raise its seed prices at will,..."

"Monsanto increased some corn seed
prices last year by 25 percent, with an additional 7 percent hike planned for corn seeds in 2010. Monsanto brand soybean seeds climbed 28 percent last year and will be flat or up 6 percent in 2010, said company spokeswoman Kelli Powers."

"Monsanto's broad use of licensing agreements has made its biotech traits
among the most widely and rapidly adopted technologies in farming
history. These days, when farmers buy bags of seed with obscure brand
names like AgVenture or M-Pride Genetics, they are paying for Monsanto's licensed products."

"One of the numerous provisions in the licensing agreements is a ban on mixing genes - or "stacking" in industry lingo - that enhance Monsanto's power."

"One contract provision likely helped Monsanto buy 24 independent seed
companies throughout the Farm Belt over the last few years: that corn
seed agreement says that if a smaller company changes ownership, its inventory with Monsanto's traits "shall be destroyed immediately."


"One contract gave an independent seed company deep discounts if the company ensured that Monsanto's products would make up 70 percent of its total corn seed inventory. In its 2004 lawsuit, Syngenta called the discounts part of Monsanto's "scorched earth campaign" to keep Syngenta's new traits out of the market."

"Quarles said the discounts were used to entice seed companies to carry
Monsanto products when the technology was new and farmers hadn't yet
used it. Now that the products are widespread, Monsanto has discontinued
the discounts, he said."

"The Monsanto contracts reviewed by the AP prohibit seed companies from
discussing terms, and Monsanto has the right to cancel deals and wipe
out the inventory of a business if the confidentiality clauses are violated."

"Thomas Terral, chief executive officer of Terral Seed in Louisiana, said he recently rejected a Monsanto contract because it put too many
restrictions on his business. But Terral refused to provide the unsigned
contract to AP or even discuss its contents because he was afraid
Monsanto would retaliate and cancel the rest of his agreements."

"I would be so tied up in what I was able to do that basically I would
have no value to anybody else," he said. "The only person I would have
value to is Monsanto, and I would continue to pay them millions in fees."


Monsanto acknowledged that U.S. Department of Justice lawyers are
seeking documents and interviewing company employees about its marketing
practices. The DOJ wouldn't comment.


"Monsanto chairman and chief executive officer Hugh Grant told investment
analysts during a conference call this fall that the price increases are
justified by the productivity boost farmers get from the company's
seeds."

"It's just like I got hit with bad weather and got a poor yield. It just
means I've got less in the bottom line," said Markus Reinke, a corn and
soybean farmer near Concordia, Mo. who took over his family's farm in
1965. "They can charge because they can do it, and get away with it. And
us farmers just complain, and shake our heads and go along with it."




"Monsanto was only a niche player in the seed business just 12 years ago.
It rose to the top thanks to innovation by its scientists and aggressive use of patent law by its attorneys."

"First came the science, when Monsanto in 1996 introduced the world's
first commercial strain of genetically engineered soybeans. "

"The company soon released other genetically altered crops, such as corn plants that produced a natural pesticide to ward off bugs. While
Monsanto had blockbuster products, it didn't yet have a big foothold in
a seed industry made up of hundreds of companies that supplied farmers."

"That's where the legal innovations came in, as Monsanto became among the
first to widely patent its genes and gain the right to strictly control
how they were used. That control let it spread its technology through
licensing agreements, while shaping the marketplace around them."

"Back in the 1970s, public universities developed new traits for corn and soybean seeds that made them grow hardy and resist pests. Small seed companies got the traits cheaply and could blend them to breed superior
crops without restriction. But the agreements give Monsanto control over
mixing multiple biotech traits into crops."

"The restrictions even apply to taxpayer-funded researchers."



"Quarles pointed out that Monsanto has signed agreements with several
companies allowing them to stack their traits with Monsanto's. After
Syngenta settled its lawsuit, for example, the companies struck a broad
cross-licensing accord."

"At the same time, Monsanto's patent rights give it the authority to say
how independent companies use its traits, Quarles said."

"Please also keep in mind that, as the (intellectual property
developer), it is our right to determine who will obtain rights to our technology and for what purpose," he said."

"Monsanto's provision requiring companies to destroy seeds containing
Monsanto's traits if a competitor buys them prohibited DuPont or other big firms from bidding against Monsanto when it snapped up two dozen smaller seed companies over the last five years, said David Boies, a lawyer representing DuPont who previously was a prosecutor on the federal antitrust case against Microsoft Corp."

"Competitive bids from companies like DuPont could have made it far more
expensive for Monsanto to bring the smaller companies into its fold. But
that contract provision prevented bidding wars, according to DuPont."

"If the independent seed company is losing their license and has to
destroy their seeds, they're not going to have anything, in effect, to
sell," Boies said. "It requires them to destroy things - destroy things
they paid for - if they go competitive. That's exactly the kind of restriction on competitive choice that the antitrust laws outlaw."

"Quarles said some of the Monsanto contracts let companies sell their
inventory for a period of time, rather than be required to destroy it.
Seed companies also don't have to pay royalty fees on the bags of seed
they destroyed."

"Simply put, it was designed to facilitate early adoption of the
technology," he said."

"Some independent seed company owners say they feel increasingly pinched
as Monsanto cements its leadership in the industry."

"They have the capital, they have the resources, they own lots of companies, and buying more. We're small town, they're Wall Street," said Bill Cook, co-owner of M-Pride Genetics seed company in Garden City, Mo., who also declined to discuss or provide the agreements. "It's very difficult to compete in this environment against companies like Monsanto."


Note from pars: Information for you to read. maybe one of the best investments you can make is right on the farm, and is to tuck away a few bags of old, non-Gm seed, say Harrington barley bags of seed. Old varieties. Those bags may be worth a lot of money someday when there is no seed left and the available seed royalty is so steep, you cannot afford it and have no seed left to plant.

Double bag and just tuck a few away for a rainy day....kinda like buying a generator in case the power goes out. Pars

[liberty]

"And you have absolutely no right in judging whether or not my response is appropriate or not."

Of course I have the right to judge your responses and statements. If you are unable to effectively compete with others in your chosen line of work, that is not the fault of those who are more capable than you. It's up to you to learn more about what your competitors are doing right and acknowledge that you might be doing some things wrong, and that you need to change.

"...wait until you see the effects of short-sighted, greedy actions spurred by glittering promises...."

Sounds like the promises made by the Bolsheviks to the Russian people.

"...how you (will) react when your part of the industry is the one that gets pushed out . . . "

Well, if my industry is the one that gets pushed out, maybe that happens because I deserved to be pushed out. Did that possibility not occur to you? Maybe I will get pushed out because I sat on my keyster and foolishly expected too much from my customers; maybe I didn't innovate enough or understand changes in my business environment sufficiently. I find that too many people have a hard time accepting that sometimes when bad things happen to them it actually is their fault.

[liberty]

The whole Monsanto debate is also quite interesting. One factor in this that most people seem to forget is that patents can't last forever. They expire after 20 years, although sometimes they are extended for brief periods beyond that.

Some of Monsanto's earlier patents are set to expire in the next few years, just like they already have with Roundup. If the product is good enough to have a life extending beyond the patent, competition will lower its cost dramatically, and it will be available to any and all with no licenses and/or fees.

[parsley]

One factor in this that most people seem to forget is that gene modification lasts forever.

[liberty]

What's the problem with gene modification lasting forever?

Mother nature modifies genes all the time, and plant breeders have been doing it by conventional means for eons as well.

[Fransisco]

Looks like the conversation has moved on from checkings question but I'll answer it anyways. I don't see the Aussies finally realizing they were wrong about GM canola as a bad thing. We're going to see more and more of it as time goes on. Europe's time will come as well.

In the long run productivity and efficiency gains make us all richer. That's the main reason our standard of living is higher than that of our Grandparents.

I don't have a problem with honest competition. Honest competition has never been our problem. It's the barriers put in front of us by various governments that get in the way of us being able to compete that's the real culprit.

[parsley]

You could ancestorially lose the debate if you agree to a terminator gene for your marriagable children.

[parsley]

But, alas, I concede if the debate is about survival of the fittest.......

[Fransisco]

Not really sure about the GM is forever comment. One would think if we have the ability to insert a specific gene such as the one that delivers roundup resistance we would also be able to remove that specific gene. Removing unwanted traits is as an important part of plant breeding as is inserting desired ones.

Then there is the case of Starlink corn which shows that GM crops can be recalled if need be.
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/pips/starlink_corn_monitoring.htm

Check out this chart

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4440/1858/1600/Starlink.gif

and this one

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cheRMv1X2oI/R0Ae0-GWQLI/AAAAAAAAACg/lm90SxIPjtE/s1600-h/StarlinkDieoffEPAOct07.JPG

Funny how the level just keeps dropping over time instead of steadily increasing.

[parsley]

Fran I'm going to let you think about that one for awhile. LOLOL