Flax seed

[Daylate]

Why the f#$% not your own seed. If the real issue is that EU doesn't want triffid, than a test that shows it is triffid free seed at seeding and triffid free before it gets to the elevator in the fall than why not your own seed. If you are confident enough that your seed is good than use it. |If not, buy it.

[oneoff]

Because you will not sleep comfortably at night; knowing that the delivery contract you signed states you swear that 100% certified seed was used to grow your production (tested by the seed grower because ordinary farmer's samples are known to be unreliable). In the event that there is a problem with any of the shipment your production is comingled with; there will be instances of coming back on those growers who did not live up to the documents they have committed themselves to.
If you haven't yet had the pleasure to experience a court situation; I can assure you that in the lengthy time before a decision is reached (and further time expended in appeals); that you will have no idea if you are in trouble or not. Regardless you will probably not sleep as soundly during those years. The final decision of the court may hinge on some techicality that your lawyer and yourself never even saw coming.
It might be smartest to just swear off growing flax for a decade or two. Or because of beef industry problems and pork and canola and soybean meal problems; and organic prices and impending problem; and other sector problems; why not consider a real 9:00 to 5:00 job (or even retirement considering the average age of a farmer) and let someone else feed the world. It's beginning to happen. Just watch me.

[Daylate]

I understand how a contract works Mr. Jack oneoff but you missed my point. Cert seed wont guarantee that the flax is triffid free for export to EU any more than the same test for your own seed. You have the same chance of it having triffid in it come harvest as cert seed from contamination. Regardless of the contract, seed should be tested before, and after delivery, if triffid is the real issue. What concerns me is that I hate giving up freedoms for the future just to conform to short term gains. but that is my concern, not yours, since I'll be there for that future long after you.

[ry0972]

Our Flax seed is Vimy, I bought the first 300 bushels as Certified almost 20 years ago. We cleaned almost that entire first crop then cleaned more 5 or so years later and again about 7 years ago. It was usually cleaned in the fall or winter during slow times and usually had wheat or barley through the plant before our flax.
Always grown on land we have farmed for years and seeded/harvested/hauled by ourselves.
None of the 5 bin samples we sent in tested positive. I think our seed has a better chance of being Triffid free than ANY certified seed in Canada!!!
I have no intention of EVER buying Certified Flax seed from the guys that caused/spread the problem in the first place. I will/have quit growing it until common sense prevails or a bunch of this certified stuff starts testing positive in a year or so and we go through this all again.
Have 2 domestic buyers/end users that have said they will continue to buy our Vimy even if we use our bin run seed as they like the variety characteristics and how it works for them.
Growers have to stand up and tell the Grain companies and the useless/spineless talking head organizations that are pushing this to F*@k off or they will just not grow any. Do not give in to these SOB's and buy seed from the same guys that caused the problem!!!!

[oneoff]

Time will tell, but it is a fact that the industry has decided such things as
1. Its unworkable to be testing seed from 22,000 farmers
2. You and I are incompetent seed samplers. Also most likely untrained snow plow operators etc. etc.
3. Its foolhardy to be lying on contracts. They are legal documents.
4. In cases where someone makes the rules unilaterally; the passage of time doesn't usually make it easier to reason with that person.
5. Read my other posts and you will see that I have the same position on this matter as you have. You and I have been trumped on the matter of whether properly tested homegrown seed is every bit as good as certified tested seed. That is the issue.

[Burbert]

Industry did it with Canolie, why can't they do it wit flax. Mix it all together and all you got is GM stuff. Good fer ya to. To heck wit Europe, sell it elsewhere, Europe doesn't mean much anwyas. Japan fer instance likes GM stuff and Amerikie, premium markets can't fail. They'll just print more cash to buy the stuff if need be!

[checking]

Unfortunately Japan doesn't like the stuff either, Burbert. Queue yourself up for the second go around if you won't accept that as a fact.

[TOM4CWB]

checking,

japan has negotiated a very fair tolerance that accomodates the vast majority of produce growers have in store.

The fact that the EU just put the screw to us... proves how political and unscientific that market is for flax. I agree with Charlie... we need to get on with it... and register the flax gene and GM marker event in the EU.

[checking]

Tom, I think with a further five sessions perhaps more could be clarified.

For example, a producer from Saskatoon (day 2) asked how long would it take to grow out flax volunteers?. Answer - after two years, very few will be left, after three years, none will volunteer as what's the chance that if some did that any would be a triffid seed at 1 seed in 10,000 seeds originally sown. Your experience indicates at least six years for volunteers. Confusing, isn't it.

You're correct that Japan has a higher tolerence level than the EU. The panel didn't say that on day 1, but indicated on day 2 that Japan's acceptance level protocol, as of last week, was 1%.

Also confusing, the panel said the EU is not testing their own home grown flax to our level. Humm! Also said other countries' protocols into the EU are different. No elaboration.

Further, the seed lab spokesperson said they would have no trouble testing samples of 12,000 commercial growers to the level of testing performed on pedigree and certified seed. (You got the money, honey, they have got the time!) Our industry leaders say that isn't good enough. Go figure. Love these nice closed shops that claim to be helping us. Boys and girls, run the other way.

[TOM4CWB]

Checking,

The CDN pedigreed seed system protocols were NEVER designed to prevent or clean up GM events or to eliminate a variety back to zero tolerance levels. Zero is a very low number when there are 10,000 kernels in 60 grams. 1% loss is considered a norm for combines... 30bu/ac =.3bu/ac loss... or 17lb=7718grams... /60grams/10,000= (128 times 10,000) 1,280,000 kernels per acre on the ground if harvest is going well.

As also stated the .01% EU GM event tolerance... is hard to understand... if .01% is actually a negative result in all 4 60 gram tests on a 2.5kg sample. Zero is zero isn't it? Or is it? Do trace levels not count in the CGC EU protocol?

[checking]

Tom, it almost makes sense that I go into mouse farming for their gathering, packing, and storing ability out in our fields. I believe I read somewhere that 50% of the weed seed throw over is processed by them, each year. Maybe we could GMO them to favour flax over all other food sources!!!

[TOM4CWB]

Checking,

We need to harvest those mice... and sell them to all the pet cats... OH NO!

The human owners want nonGM catfood... and expect their cats to be vegans for a longer life!!!

Now all I have to do... is to stop our cats from chewing each other up on long cold winter nights!!!

2010... what a time to be alive... we treat our pets better than our neighbours!

[oneoff]

T4
You did the math on combine losses. Do the same for a 0.01% loss and you will see that it is not zero. Simple as that.
Zero means nil, none, nada and so little of diddly squat that there is absolutely nothing left.
But 0.01% and all the way down to zero is what you and I may think is insignificant; but not necessarily to others. The current Triffid test can't be sure (probably at 95% level of significance at one standard deviation or something like that) if there is any Triffid at all or if it is there at between 0.01% and zero per cent in every test that has ever been conducted to date, or will be conducted using that test in the future. This also insinuates that the test isn't to be relied on as having 100% accuracy. Thats why they can do 4 tests; and then you add confidence to your results. You don't believe that? Then why would you even bother doing 3 additional tests on the same sample if you're so damn sure about the first test. Still with even four tests; no one can be 100% sure; and you still basically can't even hazard a guess that the sample is totally clean. You're pretty sure its somewhat less than 0.01 and whatever that actual amount is; it will fall between zer0 and 0.01%
There. I got that off my chest and have made a statement that will destry all my future credibility if I am wrong. (Don't worry; a person can always change their pen name and come back reincarnated.)
Regardless; thats called statistics 101; and don't hold me to it anymore cause I'm getting forgetful in older age; tired from being worn down from events like Triffid; disappointed that younger potential farmers see no future in farming; not suprised that there are so few people like parsley out there and I have honestly forgotten much more than I currently know. Hopefully the basics and some learned common sense principle's remain; and my analysis adds something to the discussion.