Top of list?. What if this is mostly correct?

[oneoff]

TOM4CWB posted Feb 4, 2010 21:06
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oneoff, CP, Checking....

This whole thing is a gut wrencher.

If one 60 gram sample is tested... (about 10,000 seeds) the accuracy is only .03% according to the experts.

So my test was negative... but really means nothing. We have been deceived.

This is why the 'new' protocol requires 4 different samples of 60 grams each... bringing the statistical accuracy to .01% 95% of the time. The sample needs to be .01% of the lot being tested... then cut using proper reducing protocol to end with 2.5kg for export... and 2.0kg for seed.

These DNA tests were originally for .1%... and only by close calibration can they meet the accuracy claimed. EU protocol requires 4 different 60 gram samples... ground to a preset consistency... then tested against known calibration samples. One sample is calibrated at .05%, one sample at .01% and the third at a known sample of ZERO Flax GM event.

I understand the EU often does not use the higher GM event .05 &.01% calibration samples... just the known ZERO sample. The EU in general does not care much about the .01% standard I am told... any amplification reading from the zero known sample is a positive for the GM event... there is no such thing as a 'trace' level of contamination in their minds.

A seed either contained the GM event... and tests negative... or is positive.



So Our Canadian GM testing system is screwed up and backwards.

Seed needs to have the 4-60 gram test first before conditioning. NOT after! $3/bu for conditioning is not far off cost last year for the flax I cleaned... using gravity etc. and assuring high quality for pedigreed stock seed. Plus $2.50/bu levy and royalty is not unusual. How many lots can seed growers afford to loose... to a 'false' positive or GM trace event...

If one of my 10t flax lots... tests positive... will anyone buy the lots that are from the same field that are negative? What about a trace result?

What about outcrossing?

If a GM flax plant outcrossed in a field 12 years ago... being a diploid and crossing with normal flax...

25% are normal; 50% have 50% of the GM event; 25% have 100% of the GM event normally this GM Flax.

Normal outcrossing is about 1.85% @ .1m it has been found. Outcrossing can happen as far as 35m at low frequencies (ie. Bees).

[Environmental biosafety of genetically engineered crops: Flax (Linum usitatissimum L.) as a model system by Amitkumar Jayendrasinh Jhala]

So trace events now being tested at 30-40% of samples submitted... are by some people considered positive results even though we can not test accurately below .01%.

I am told in cargos now being delivered... have a very similar result being reported for their EU testing... our trace is a EU positive...

IF the cargo is being used in the EU for industrial... it can then be handled.

This is a 'gentleman's agreement' the .01% tolerance... NOT the LAW.

Zero is still Zero!

According to CFIA if a negative at .01 is tested and certified; a grower of seed can use this. BUT is a negative zero? It is a fact many growers who now THINK they are negative.... are instead half pregnant!

In the US... the LLRice event taught many things to those in LA. I spoke for a very long time to a wise operator at Eurofins GeneScan, Inc. today.

Farm saved seed that was properly cleaned and sampled and had a zero GM event... was just as effective at removal of the problem... as was certified seed.

Is rice different that flax?

Good question... but one would logically expect the US to be as expert and best experienced anywhere; because they have being dealing with this problem for over a decade!

I know there will be those who will want to hang me... being honest is more important than anything else... on judgement day before my creator.

In Louisiana they are 2 years into having clear rice seed GM zero reports... and virtually all commercial grain is at zero as well.

He said we are headed for a disaster up here... politics is trumping common sense and logic.

They will do the same tests as Quantum... are ISO certified (Quantum is not)... if you can wait a couple of weeks for the result.

Check the CGC web site for links... only 3 in North America are properly certified for the EU.

http://www.grainscanada.gc.ca/gmflax-lingm/ltf-lal-eng.htm



List of ISO 17025-accredited laboratories

Eurofins/GeneScan USA
Eurofins GeneScan, Inc.
2315 N Causeway Boulevard, Suite 200
Metairie LA 70001
Telephone: 504-297-4330
Web site: http://www.gmotesting.com/

Genetic ID
504 N 4th Street, Suite 102
Fairfield IA 52556
Telephone: 641-472-9979 or 877-366-0790
Web site: http://www.genetic-id.com

OMIC USA, Inc.
3344 NW Industrial Street
Portland OR 97210-1619
Telephone: 503-223-1497
Web site: http://www.omicnet.com/omicusa/index.htm
IP: Logged
Edit?

oneoff posted Feb 5, 2010 1:25
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You know t4; I have the deepest respect for anyone who tells the whole truth. Such people (and I now include you as one of them) have always been my first choice with whom I would prefer to have business dealings.
Registered seed growers deserve fair returns for the extra work and costs of producing your saleable product. When a catastropy happens; and the seed industry is an integral part of the story; it should have come clean and accepted even more than their fair share of the financial damages that have and will fall mainly outside the seed grower community.
When I first brought up the concept of the relationships of test sensitivity as it relates to tolerance levels as then related to the science of statistics and probabilities; levels of significance; maybe even standard deviations and confidence levels; not to mention sampling methadologies and inherent errors and mistakes possible in each of the above factors; it could be just as confusing to ordinary farmers as the Chief Justices summary of the determining liability. Myself included. I didn't have the facts that t4 has so bravely provided; and will be totally suprised if he is far from the mark. When there is no credable rebuttal to t4; as there has not been to my previous posts; then it can almost safely be said that our statements are pretty accurate.
Whether you can pull together various pieces of information to see the bigger picture is not determined by your level of education. That comes from a separate set of skills that involve common sense; fairness and the ability to put truth and honesty above the short term gains in protecting your own interest.
Up to now; there has been way too many industry plans dictated by at least perceived self interest of those parties. There is every likelihood that their plan of certified seed is deleloped around limiting their own liabilities and offloading costs onto farmers. We've aquiesed too many times before; and someday should come together enough to gain a seat at the table. Again its time for those organizations and companies to come clean. They surely knew all about the points that t4 has reported; and have deliberately witheld and continue to withold that information which is essential to choosing the best options going forward.
Speak up if we are wrong; and certainly listen and respond if valid points are being made. You will gain respect no other way.

[dave4441]

DO their mustard contracts actually say that???

[parsley]

Simply put, this is about decency. It has been the trademark of the farm community, entrusted to us from homesteaders.

[oneoff]

The four page fact sheet passed out by Viterra at the Minot Farm show last week actually says that. It is in dark bold print and says there is a zero tolerance for GM canola in mustard.

[charliep]

Off topic but is it interesting to note that EU has resumed importing Canadian canola (page 7 Feb. 4 Western Producer). This is the first time since 96/97. Bio diesel industry in the south. Genetic events for canola have been register for the most part. 95,000 tonne to date (Portugal) with opportunity for more.

Should Canada be attempting to get the genetic event around triffid registered in the European Union?

[checking]

No comments from "the industry" or "the trade"; yet . Are you spokespersons just waiting for the post to get buried and diasappear on its own. That may not happen.
If its a case of not understanding the issue; then maybe someone can explain the problem in words you can understand.
If you're going to lead; then you need to be accountable. You don't want to follow; so consider getting out of the way.
You "leaders" in the "industry" might consider responding. There are actually people waiting for a response.

[oneoff]

I'll try reword what is wrong with the certified seed solution

A sample with less than 0.01% Triffid contamination (at current test sensitivity of 0.01% contamination) is not usually detectable and thus tests negative. Those negative test results do not mean the sample is Triffid free; and as such do not meet anyone's strict zero tolerance.
Farmers are being led down the path of satisfying the trade that only needs production to not have detectable levels. As soon as a more sensitive test is developed (and the researchers and testers will develop and market those tests); and their services will be in demand forever again and again); then we are in trouble again and again when positive tests come from those samples previously considered negative.

There's a whole lot of room between 0.01% and zero per cent.

Certified seed is irrepairably contaminated. To eradicate Triffid(which I think is not technically or practically even feasible) requires "sterilizing" the environment and digging out those tiny stored seed samples grown before someone starting tinkering with the Triffid experiment.
It will be years before there is a commercial supply for your muffins.
Don't worry; that will never happen. What will happen is that over time GM varieties will contaminate every crop and every species and every animal known to man. It probably already beyond the point of no return. That was not meant to be.
The scary part; to me; is not the foreign genes that were inserted for the specific trait; but the additional genes that accompany the insertion that no one even pays any attention to. There's a little bit of everything in anything you know; and they all aren't tested for; let alone down to zero percent tolerance.

[parsley]

On topic, charliep

If farmers are looking to buy flax seed, and go surfing on the web, and come across a website advertising seed, do farmer buyers want know who and where the seedgrowers are located as listed on the website?

How does a person avoid "hot" Triffid areas, is what I keep being asked.
Here's flax listed for sale, but<p></p>
<p class="EC_style8ptBK"><strong><a href="http://fpgenetics.ca/">(I can't seem to find the names of the seed growers and their locations, can you?)</a></strong></p>

[charliep]

Why would this be important?

From what I know, there is a presence of mute amounts of triffid
contamination everywhere. A person can't say for sure but the
best guess is the source has been at the breeder seed source at
some point.

I perhaps agree with oneoff's comment.

NO THERE WILL NEVER EVER BE A TRIFFID FREE WORLD

If this is the case, and we both agree this is market access issue,
not a food safety one, what should be done next?

[parsley]

Reason #1, charliep.

1. There are people called organic farmers. They buy seed and plant crops, charliep. Many of them have bought pedigreed seed, because they believed seedgrowers were a credible supplier.

As the Seedgrowers webpage presently states:

quote "Organic Pedigreed Seed Listing

New regulations for organic production in Canada were implemented in 2009 by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

The preferred source of seed in organic production regulations is certified organically grown seed. Due to the limited supply of organic seed of new varieties and some crop kinds, the traditional exception has been included in these regulations to allow the use of untreated, non GMO seed from conventional agriculture."

Yes, well, it's a bit dicey, isn't it? I'm sure most seed buyers didn't expect Triffid in their seed.

But if farmers can actually identify the seedgrower' farms who bought the Triffid seed, and then multiplied it, then isn't it prudent business for organic farmers to actually avoid buying from those contaminated /fields/cleaning plants/sites?

But they must be first identified.

Since the site I posted is a company gazetted as FP Genetics Inc., but were previously named FarmPure Genetics Inc. and before that Farmpure Seeds Inc. and on and on and on with name changes, until we go right back to Quality assured Seeds Inc, who INITIALLY purchased the Triffid Seed from the CDC in the U of S, it becomes imposrtant to identify the Triffid growers. Some shareholders will not have grown Triffid at all. Or even flax, for that matter.

And organics does not only buy flax. Indeed organics purchase other seed, too.

Some farms will be Triffid free. Organics needs to source from them. pars.

You sound so keen to get on with even yet more Triffid, charliep. Pars

[parsley]

#2,

This IS a food safety issue, charliep. You must have snoozed through my comments.

You see, you just want to pack up Triffid troubles in the old kit bag and move on. Did some Triffid owners pack it into bins and never did move it to the crushing plant? or brown bag it to Russia?

The accountability issue has not been addressed.

There WILL be a GM event that goes bad. Some day. To simply pray that it will not, or wish it away, is not er, scientific.

The farmers who bought Triffid actually still own it. They probably don't want to, but they still do. And what they own has raised havoc with markets. And with the organic market, too. Canada's international reputation is in tatters. But there has been no remorse. No apology. No response.

So we can guess what kind of accountability will arise from the same kind of shareholders in any company, patenting the newest gimmick, when a GM event goes badly wrong. Not if, but WHEN. There are reals risks from stooking genes. And you know it.

And it wouldn't matter if it wan't food. Most people don't care if, say, paint accidently becomes the color of tumeric, or if all brown eyed children turn blue eyed. But if digestability becomes an issue, or RunnyRedKrohn's becomes chronic for ten days and then la mort, something will hit the fan.

And Joe Duck will be left wondering what financially hit him, because the smart kids downloaded ownership of the unintended consequences of the patent on the Joe Ducks of farmland.Cotton won't be pleased.

That's whose paying for Triffid losses racking up. You and your neighbor and his neighbor, Lost sales. Delays. Lost reputation. Lost markets. Devalued land?

How many Triffid owners have called YOU if you bought registered flax seed from them? Don't you think a call would have been good business? Or a 'call here' on the webpage?

But worse, and this is the point that keeps escaping you, charliep, is that people WiLL get sick sometime, when food is being genetically modified.

This was the complimentary international testrun from Canada. Are you satisfied with it?

Farmers must have an audit system in place that is able to recall varieties, identify traits that have crossed and are harming the environment, that can eliminate the stacking causing disharmony. Kinda like a "restore" spot.

Look at this fiasco. How long has it taken to get zero answers? And what's been done? And who's been accountable? Either everyone is scared of getting sued, or else they simply could care less. I tend to view the latter is the current mood. "Who the hell do you think you are asking questions, because I could give a rat's ass if you can't sell your binfull of flax."

No one steps up to the plate,

Are farmers content with the procedures in place? With the response? Is this what, and how, food producers want to be, and act? Will consumers retain confidence in farmers? Or will your land become a litagatory nightmare?

These are hard questions. But avoiding the issue only makes it worse.

It's a little like watching the two year old shedding his poopy diaper so nobody sees it.

Litle Triffid forgot to wipe his bum clean. Pars

[oneoff]

The point is that there are lots of points. There are specific interest points that may well be only of passing interest (or even personally non significant)to myself or charliep for example; and then there are general principle's that everyone of us should sometimes wake up at night to give further thought to.
As I see it; especially after noting how this Triffid incident is being handled; the world is not yet ready for an additional varieties and lines of plants, animals, bacteria, viuses fungi, molds, funguses etc.etc etc. It is apparent that no one will know what each of those cans of worms contains.
We don't yet even know the implications and consequences of releasing GM concoctions in the general populations. That why suprises occur. And what is even worse; it is now evident that those who release them have no desire to respond to specific or general questions. The regulators, promoters and salesmen may only be adept at managing the liabilities they happen to get caught with from time to time.
While bankruptcies of limited companies; company name changes and off loading to third parties (farmers) may all be legal alternatives; I still personally feel it is only convenient and short term setbacks for very big business. Someone does pay; and with no say or opportunity for input before decisions are made; those consumers have every right to ask for at least accountability.

[oneoff]

Her's a quot from another thread


"I'll try reword what is wrong with the certified seed solution

A sample with less than 0.01% Triffid contamination (at current test sensitivity of 0.01% contamination) is not usually detectable and thus tests negative. Those negative test results do not mean the sample is Triffid free; and as such do not meet anyone's strict zero tolerance.
Farmers are being led down the path of satisfying the trade that only needs production to not have detectable levels. As soon as a more sensitive test is developed (and the researchers and testers will develop and market those tests); and their services will be in demand forever again and again); then we are in trouble again and again when positive tests come from those samples previously considered negative.

There's a whole lot of room between 0.01% and zero per cent.

Certified seed is irrepairably contaminated. To eradicate Triffid(which I think is not technically or practically even feasible) requires "sterilizing" the environment and digging out those tiny stored seed samples grown before someone starting tinkering with the Triffid experiment.
It will be years before there is a commercial supply for your muffins.
Don't worry; that will never happen. What will happen is that over time GM varieties will contaminate every crop and every species and every animal known to man. It probably already beyond the point of no return. That was not meant to be.
The scary part; to me; is not the foreign genes that were inserted for the specific trait; but the additional genes that accompany the insertion that no one even pays any attention to. There's a little bit of everything in anything you know; and they all aren't tested for; let alone down to zero percent tolerance. "

[parsley]

#3
There's another point called money.

The USA is running out of it, but their government keeps on spending. They don't bite the bullet; Wheat Board mentality. Spend, ignore and don't be accountable.

But irresponsibility has its' costs.

And whilst America and their companies are busy spending, other countries are savers with 'Head down, ass up' working people. They have low standards of living, but they will soon buy out the the rich gone poor.

Ask yourself this squestion: Where does Canada line up to borrow money? From whom? What countries?

From whom does the US borrow money?

China is buying corporations and gold and land and poised to buy more of the desperates' red ink for cheap.

China will soon be able to pick off ANY corporation and buy it. Kapoof. And they know what's valuable.

Food.

China knows the value of food. We don't.

So...
Although the price of your Event Prairie 382std wheat may be $14.00 a bushel now, if new foreign ownership takes control of a genetic corporation, your price of wheat may double overnight. Pricing in your contract, right?

And because ALL crops world wide do or eventually will contain patented genes via contamination as well as planted, Farmer Duck get to pay the royalty. Ask Percy how it works.

If China buys out the GM multis, swoosh, and then sets the price of GM seed, you can bet their nationalism will come first before a foreign country's domestic needs.

And if you don't think China has become a powerful strategic thinker, give your head a shake.

And yes, I know some farmers have verbalized that the be all end all is the dividend from your favourite corporation.That too, may change once you view the world through another country's eyes.
Pars

[charliep]

You both use the word GMO. Just to help me understand, what
is your definition of GMO? Is it only genetic engineering?

The world is about to become even more complicated as more
becomes known about gene sequencing/mapping. All countries
(including Europe) will be using this technology. I will bet
either one of you that China will have a genetically engineered
rice within 2 years.