Cost of organic grain

[parsley]

I'll add this for you to think about:

DNA methalation in the womb: Can activate or deactivate gene growth. The gene is still there, but it is, for some unknown reason, turned off.

The activation and deactivation of genes is not understood. Space in the womb affects development. Hormones affect it. The QUALITY OF NUTRITION affects fetal development.

Don't answer this, bluefargo, but think about it, will you: If you were having a grandchild, anc all things equal, would you PREFER the mother's food was modified or not modified?

There really is no question, is there?, for any of us. Why would anyone take the slightest chance when it comes to growth/development, if a person didn't have to?

I know many people who's children/grands are struggling with developmental issues. Classrooms are filled with special ed. If you have ever observed it, or helped, you would better understand the heartache many have to bear for a lifetime. Why would any expectant mother take medical chances (skip hormonal diabetic checks while pregnant, for example) or food-selection chances?

So far, we've been lucky. And the twins, so far, are healthy, active, and huge, huge, huge! Touch wood.

[charliep]

You refer to GMO and I never sure what you are talking about. My
assumption is transgenics - insertion of a gene from another species.

To the original point, perhaps one of the problem with organics is
adapting agronomic practices to a different world. Organic farmers
perhaps can't use conventional tillage practices (either traditional of
multiple passes or minimum till). Like using a hammer when really what
is needed is screwdriver.

You have talked about research into perennial cereals as alternative in
previous postings. What if the route to this is inserting a gene from a
closely related grass species into wheat?

Perhaps to even make things more interesting, what happens if the way
to perennial wheat is to have a better understanding of gene functions
and science identifies the gene/gene sequence that controls annual
versus perennial expression of wheat and learns how to turn on the
perennial expression (perennial wheat via biotechnology). Would you be
okay with this?

I note that several have suggested that genetic engineering will be old
technology. Understanding genes and their functions will be the future.
Some traits may be contained in genes almost as on off switches. Nature
does this all the time.

[TOM4CWB]

Parsley,

This is a very interesting issue.

Many would say belief and religion are a large component of the actual debate on organic farming.

There were much more dangerous problems like thalidomide and other related treatments that were advised to help humanity.

One would suggest that after a generation and billions of people eating GMO grain... that the proof of a concrete issue is very hard to argue...

BSE is a perfect example of food/feed practices that led to problems and even this could be debated. Growth hormones for beef and milk are another 'religious' issue that has little science to back up claims of damage to humans.

To argue religion... is as close to a futile project; yet many will still try!

Grin <(>;{ Grin!

Good thing we are allowed to think for ourselves... and the thought police don't jail us for this privilege...

YET!

[Burbert]

I don't care about people organic farming. Good for them, if they kin make a go of it. I WORRY more about the chemicals currently being used and GMO's that are pretending to be the silver bullets, to be used by angribusiness. Each to his own though, I guess cause the genie is outta the bottle, now. We gotta live wit it whether we likes it er not! Angribusiness is self-regulatin like a lotta other stuff it seems, okay till problem arise, we depend to much on the industry, butt cheap food is cheap food, no matter what?

[JDGreen]

Pars I am offended at your comments regarding "test tube babies" Surely you are not suggesting that my two beautiful children are less than or freaks because of IVF?? Consider you family fortunate, as not even god almighty could help my wife and I conceive. Science has fulfilled our life with more joy than GM foods will ever cause despair.

[parsley]

Oh my, no offense intended, JD. The comment meant nothing except noticing that identical twins are extremely rare. And surprising! Monozygotic twins are formed essentially, for whatever reason, from one egg splitting into two.

Lots of fraternal (two eggs) twins are born in vitro, though, including a pair in the family (not immediate family.

Children are never freaks, JD. They are children. Gifts. As are yours. That's a given.

Twins will be a busy event, though,lol. Just be glad I wasn't a twin, charliep. LOL Pars

[parsley]

QUOTE

Canwest News Service has learned Environment Canada has determined that Yorkshire pigs developed at the University of Guelph are not toxic to the environment under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. The official declaration will be made on Saturday.
This is the first regulatory hurdle to get the pigs to market, which will be a first in the country if Health Canada approves Guelph's pending application, submitted last year, seeking a government declaration that its transgenic pig is fit for human consumption.
The so-called "Enviropigs," the world's first transgenic animal created to solve an environmental problem, were created in 1999 with a snippet of mouse DNA introduced into their chromosomes.
The pigs produce low-phosphorus feces.
The Guelph scientists were able to reduce phosphorus pollution by creating a special composite gene that enables digestion of a normally unavailable form of phosphorus. This allows the pigs to produce manure that is 30 to 65 per cent lower in phosphorus than found in the manure of regular pigs -- blamed for polluting surface and groundwater when raised in intensive livestock operations.
"The university has successfully satisfied the requirements to allow the line of transgenic pigs to be produced and farmed using appropriate containment procedures. UNQUOTE


From what a few of you comment, you won't mind a little bit of mouse in your bacon, and this..species to species, is to what you are referring, charliep, right? For me, as well as a lot of consumers who choose organic, we prefer old fashioned pork. No mouse in my pork. Dumb huh?

Now, a dash of glyphosate in your ragweed doesn't seem to faze you a bit, either, does it, charliep, but if given a preference, most people buying organic would prefer ragweed was not hitched up with the glysophate gene. Weird, huh? You see, the marriage of ragweed with glysophate affects the world around the ragweed plant, and I haven't read about anyone smart enough to predict where the cross pollinating and the genetic crossing ends up.! Of course, some of you will consider inserting glyphosate into basil... normal. Or another man made chemical into pumpkins.. normal as hell on Tuesday mornings.

Surprise! Look at one teensy-weensy example of "What will be the effects of the marriage of ragweed and glyphosate on some unsuspecting feeder?":

From Wikipedia:

List of Lepidoptera that feed on ragweeds

Ragweeds (Ambrosia spp.) are used as food plants by the caterpillars (larvae) of some Lepidoptera species including:

Monophagous species that feed exclusively on Ambrosia spp.
Bucculatrix leaf-miners:
B. agnella - feeds on A. artemisiifolia
B. franseriae - feeds on A. deltoidea
B. transversata - feeds on A. psilostachya
Chionodes mediofuscella
Schinia spp
S. dobla - feeds on A. dumosa
S. rivulosa
S. sexplagiata - feeds on A. psilostachya
S. thoreaui
Polyphagous species that feed on Ambrosia spp. among other plants
Bucculatrix leaf-miners:
B. ambrosiaefoliella
B. pomifoliella
Schinia bifascia - recorded on A. trifida

Yup. They ALL munch on ragweed. Doesn't seem important to the casual observer. But neither did the Aid's virus in a person's system when it first came to light. Remember that?

Munch. Each one of them. And something else feeds on THEM.Of course your argument is...no harm at all.

But the point is...you really don't know.

Food.

It's important. Don't forget it. As farmers, that's our job to remember that food is the basic building block of life.

Harp. Harp. LOL Pars

PS Okay. Be honest. Who prefers their bacon with a mouse gene in it? (Besides Franny, lol)

[charliep]

Still confused. You always come back to transgenic/genetic
engineering. What is your opinion is introduced using some other
technique? Directed mutagensis? Using knowledge of genes/gene
sequencing to achieve a desired result?

A strange comment but a couple of articles highlighted the organic
industry would be the first to benefit from biotechnology. Disease
resistance (maybe even fusarium graminearium), drought tolerance,
salinity tolerance, improved nitrogen efficiency. Leaving
transgenics/genetic engineering/recombinant DNA to the side, are
these issues that should be dealt with? Could and should
biotechnology solutions be used to deal with these issues?

[parsley]

There will certainly be gene research that will be beneficial to food production, to humans, to the planet. I've always supported research, charliep, and you know I have.

But, I've also made it very clear that I don't believe people should be part of the massive North American experiment that is currently underway.

Triffid should have been an eye-opening example of the laxity and ambivalence that many players have towards life-changing processes.

Currently, many of the biotech companies would have zip-all if Western governments did not dedicate most of their ag/research budgets to them. And that approach/trust is folly.

Too many universities and scientists would sell their grandfather's molars if they thought it would get them another contract. As would a few farmers. Scientists themselves are increasingly wary-worried, albeit some have already been warned to STFU if they want to keep their jobs and hence are afraid to even broach doubt.

newguy initially asked the question, "Does the consumer know the true cost of buying organic food?"

For all the processes you invite to be explored/diced./sliced/studied with my tax dollar, charliep. organic food is indeed cheap. Pars

[TOM4CWB]

Parsley,

I know I am opening a can of worms here... but;

If we could grow wheat canola barley etc with N fixation... inject a fish gene to prevent soybeans of winter Canaola from fall freezes so they would produce well...

1001 needs to feed a hungry world...

Why isn't this a valuable and productive ambition for humanity?