Cost of organic grain

[parsley]

I too sold product in our market barn that was not labelled organic. It could have been. But it was extra work and hassle and expense and took more time.

The important thing was that it satisified the buyer's needs. He/she was inevitably confident buying the product. Especially those with allergies or celiac disease etc.

Willing seller, willing buyer. Proven combination. The label is only as good as the person making the sale, isn't it.

Any kind of grain sales are the most effective the closer the buyer stays in touch to the producer.

[wmoebis]

I wonder if it is the organic concept or is it the farm fresh concept and taste.

I like garden fresh fruit and vegtables and small farm growen meat. Store bought food is so tasteless.

I think for the majority of people it is okay as long as it is cheap food.

$60,000.00 for a truck and replace every 5 yrs is okay and it had better run good or they hound thier dealer. Do they spend $1000.00 per month on food and say any thing to thier store if it is tasteless or has brown spots? No trim off spots and add more spices to add taste.

[allspice]

I'm not an organic grower, but we have a close neighbor whose land is not blowing in the howling winds these last few days. They use a lot of alfalfa in rotation. Their yields are pretty respectable and even though there are years that the weeds are pretty visible, it is usually possible to identify the crop from the road. Maybe some organic growers need to look over the fence. :-)
We hear lots of talk recently about the need for GM crops to feed the growing population. We hear talk about the impossibility of organic farming feeding the world, BUT, we have poor prices now ... WHY? At the same time as we have "burdensome" carryover in many crops, we have soup kitchens, food banks, etc. right here in the same country! Abundant food does not ... will not ... never has, fed people. People with money have food, while people without money are hungry. Monsanto and Bayer et al. would have us believe that their GM technology is going to save the world from hunger! Adding $4/lb to the price of seed, or adding $15/ac to the cost of production is really helping to bring down the price of food to the hungry, isn't it? If the wealthy in the world ate less, wasted less, and spent the savings in $$ to help people in poor countries grow their own food, they might feed more hungry people than Monsanto and Bayer ever will, and be healthier as well! I look forward to seeing the opinions of others on this topic.

[hlg]

well said !!

[parsley]

Have you considered organic farmers from these three points of view:

1. The more farmers who farm organically means there is less conventional grain going into the conventional market looking for a buyer...which means the conventional price should rise. Positive.

2. As well, organic farmers sell into an organic market conventional farmers cannot access, bringing more foreign money into Canada. Positive.

3. As well, the organic grower pushes up the price average of all grain, not lowers it. Positive.

[parsley]

wmoebis,

You bring up such an important point! Fresh has always been an integral part of organics. The priority is to first sell local, then province than country then export. Also organics pushed local value-added. A little mill on the farm. Not fancy, but damn fresh.

FYI: Most popular and purchased vegetable every day for ten years...baby beets (planted in succession)

One of the most asked for commodities on the farm was "Do you have any farm cream for sale?"

You see, consumers, and that includes each one of us, like their food fresh and tasty.

Fresh and tasty. Pars

[Hopperbin]

Ok lets talk bugs, what bugs me is people eating this fast food junk, or this convenience food which is so dam yummy yuck. Then is it them that complain about herbicides? Crap they should look at their plate?

[allspice]

I have a question ... maybe someone knows the answer. Earlier in this discussion it has been said that the organic system has no way of replenishing nutrients, only cycling them. There ARE 2 things added ... sunshine and water. Yes, nutrients are drawn from the soil but in the case of plowdown, there is a lot of biomass/organic matter added. I really wonder if there is any truth to the argument that organic farming isn't sustainable because nutrients aren't replenished. We have some native pasture that has had no added nutrients for at least 3 generations. Every year we market about the same number of calves raised on that pasture as my grandfather did. If the argument that nutrients must be replenished to have a sustainable system were true, we wouldn't even be able to keep a few gopher alive by now.

Another scenario ... topsoil can be built in a desert by adding seeds and water, and returning the biomass to the soil.

Is it reasonable to conclude that "science" does not account for the addition of water and sunshine in their fertilizer and chemical industry funded research? And the same "science" based research is in control of the development/registration of our food crops. It would really be interesting to know what "science" would find if money/profit was taken out of the equation.

[FarmRanger]

I think the nutrient removal under organic beef production would be far less than organic grain production. I don't know the carrying capacity of your land, but lets just assume around 4 acres per calf? If this is wrong, I apologize, and you can adjust this or other figures accordingly.

Assuming 4 acres per calf produced and a 600 pound calf is sold in the fall, that would leave 150 pounds of beef removed per year. Of the 150 pounds about 96% comes from atmosphere or water sources(eg. Oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, and nitrogen) The nitrogen (3%) could be replenished by lightning storms in the small amounts we're talking about.

That leaves about 4% of the rest of the 150 pounds to come from the soil, or about 6 pounds. In the last hundred years 600 pounds of nutrients could have been removed from your soil. This figure would likely be less though, because the water that those animals were drinking likely contained some of the remaining 4% of the beef removed from the system.

Grass roots reach much deeper than annual crop roots, so the weight of soil providing that 600 pounds would be far greater. You likely wouldn't notice these few pounds of nutrients out of the millions of pounds of soil.

This still doesn't make it sustainable, it just makes it last longer.

[parsley]

There seems to be two main, but very different approaches to farming, which means different way of looking at the world:

1. Farming 101 System

Crop for a half dozen or so years and then "replenish" the soil by a forage rest for a half dozen years. Maintain natural sloughs and berry bushes and pastures for wildlife. Concentrate on price instead of yeild. Market as fresh as possible locally. Value add as much as possible locally. Try and maintain a "farmer-owned, farmer-operated, farmer-run concept, as opposed to government run. Seek independence. Sink or swim farmers.

2.Farming 102 System

Continuous cropping foreverists,
"replenishing" the soil with synthetic fertilizers. Break up every available acre right to the roads and land level natural sloughs and berry bushes and natural pastures. Every acre-utilizationists.Concentrate on yeild instead of price. Market mainly to corporations, who sometimes build value added local facilities, or transport the grain to their facilities in other countries. Request "farmer-owned, farmer-operated, but also request government money and expertise and legislation in the areas of marketing, loans, bailouts, subsidies and farm programs. Generally seek largesse.


Which one are you? Which system is monetarily most sustainable? Environmentally most sustainable? Pars

[FarmRanger]

Hehe parsley, you must have a part time job in communications. Another way to phrase your 2 choices would be:

1. Farming 101 System 
 
Never replenishists.
Mine your soil for a half dozen or so years until production gets low, and then "deep root mine" the soil by a forage for the next half dozen years. Leave hard to manage areas as waste ground and spend as little as possible everywhere else. Extract the maximum revenue as possible locally. Avoid others.
 
2.Farming 102 System 
 
Replenish nutrients back into soil that you've taken out with your crops. Make use of crop rotations to keep disease down, and diversity in the system. Carefully manage your crop protection inputs and find industry partners who will work with you to help increase production and profits. Make use of government expertise and programming to smooth out periodic downturns due to circumstances beyond your control.

Same thing you said, but with the spin going the other way.

;-)

[parsley]

I loved your response. Thanks. Best part of my day.

However, I'm a woman, in case you forgot or didn't know, and I have this gentic need to get in an additional word or two.

Farming 101 System

"Mine your soil for a half dozen or so years until production gets low, and then "deep root mine" the soil by a forage for the next half dozen years."

XXXXX I have this piece of land I own, been in my family since 1883. My cousin farmed it for quite a few years, such an efficient guy he was, and he sprayed and 'replenished it,' and sprayed some more and fertilized it, until the parcel simply refused to grow any crop worth combining, so exhausted it was,. And it sported weeds that wouldn't die.

So, I had it planted to sainfoin. The hills actually grew in instead of being white and powdery!

Yes, well. I own those facts.


"Leave hard to manage areas as waste ground"
XXXXX Often true. Wildlife thrives.

"spend as little as possible everywhere else."
XXXXX Forage resting means halving your production" So it can be an expensive way to ferilize.

"Extract the maximum revenue as possible locally."

XXXXXI make NO apology for getting top dollar. I charged $4.00 a pound for baby washed potatoes. Which is prob four chocolate bars. I value food highly. You don't. Regretable. Can't get good price for what you don't believe in, I guess.

"Avoid others."

XXXXX My fav.

I've been on AV writing for prob ten years. Belonged to both WBGA and WCWGA even though organic, but they advanced some issues of mutual interest. Had an ag blog and wrote about ALL ag issues, not soley organic. Most would consider me "invasive"!
LOL Even cajoled a friend to fly over to the Barley Growers Convention TWICE to speak for free. LOL Lawsey. Where have you been? In a mole nest?

Now, farmranger, that's one you simply have to concede.LMAO

2.Farming 102 System

"Replenish nutrients back into soil that you've taken out with your crops"

XXXXX Agree

"Make use of crop rotations to keep disease down, and diversity in the system."

XXXXX Agree. Organics often plants several crops in one field for the same reason.

"Carefully manage your crop protection inputs"

XXXXX Yes well. That one is tenuous. Someone today mentioned how too many farmers spray right before harvesting, without waiting, hence this conventional farmer eat organic.

"find industry partners who will work with you to help increase production and profits."

XXXXX Head scratch. Hmmm. Is industry why conventional grain is so consistently sustainably high priced?


"Make use of government expertise and programming to smooth out periodic downturns due to circumstances beyond your control."

XXXXX Ouch. Translation: You think the world owes you a living. You want your government blankey.

;-) Pars

[FarmRanger]

Thanks Parsley,

I'm glad you took my post positively, and it was definitely meant that way. Sometimes our words without expression can be misinterpreted.

I'm glad that organic is working for you, and I have no doubt that you are doing it as sustainably as possible. You definitely write here on agri-ville like you know what you're doing.

There are farmers who call themselves “organic”, as well as “conventional” farmers who are harming their soils, and doing unsustainable, and/or harmful things. I don't think you, or I fall into that category. I do know that my soils are improving in quality and productivity, even though they are far from organic.

I would also be willing to put the nutritional quality of my farms production up against anyones, but thats because I use chemicals properly and sparingly, and crops growing on my farm are healthy and productive because of it. The soils on my farm have water absorbing and holding capacities that far exceed their pre zero-till days. When you dig up a handful of that soil its full of life, and smells of the humus that has been increasing in it over time.

My grandfather sold organic bread wheat in 55 pound bags for 3 times what commodity wheat was selling for at the time. I still think I'm better off farming the way I am, and I do know that the soil is in better shape now. As far as the security blanket, sure, I'll take gov't money if it's offered, (kinda like a tax refund), but I've paid a LOT more into crop insurance than I've ever collected from it. At least this has reduced my premiums enough that my hail rider is giving me some cheaper hail insurance now.

Maybe some day we'll meet in real life, but for now, I enjoy my anonymity. Take care Parsley!

Back to my mole nest now. ;-)
FarmRanger

[allspice]

Thanks for your reply FarmRanger ... and your additions parsley. Another question ... if 96% of the weight of a calf comes from atmosphere and water, what percentage of our crops come from those same 2 sources?
Regarding sustainability, is it really sustainable to keep adding ever greater fertilizer quantities? Are we moving a product from one place, where it will eventually be in short supply, to our farms, which depend on it to produce crops? The most alarming part of this process is the trend we see on our farm to greater fertilizer need (according to soil test results) and an increase in soil salts (also according to soil test results). The soil appears healthy ... smell, texture, earthworms, etc. ... and there has been a wide variety of crops grown, with a substantial percentage of pulses, so I question the supposed sustainability of this "replace" system.
We have been injecting the tractor exhaust into the ground with the seeder. This seems to allow us to use less fertilizer, but will that improvement be increased or decreased over a period of years?

[checking]

Injecting tractor exhaust, if it works, could be the ticket for summerfallow crazy tripping organics. One pass per year on a no till farm doesn't sound like much of an input on 6-7-8/10th gallon/acre.

Organic (salt mine) producers need to be friendly people. Why?, well they want to see what you carry in your wallet. Otherwise, it's "get out of my store" which would be my first comment if I was required to work as hard as those folks do!!!!