A solution yes or no? If not then why?

[PrairieSodBuster]

1. North American market completely free no CWB, if you have a buyer in Canada, US or Mexico no one can stop you selling to them at the price you negotiate.

2. The rest of the world is retained for the CWB and you play by their rules. But the CWB will be completely farmer directed there will be no federal appointees. It will become more a producer body. We might lose preferred interest rates that it currently has. It wouldn't be ran by bureaucrats anymore but the best people we could hire to work on our behalf. However there would be oversite to insure "professional managers" wouldn't run it into the ground as they did with the pools.

3. The government would add a permenent percentage (on the price of a loaf of bread or a bottle of beer or liquor) to the retail price of everything our grain is made with in Canada and this money would go directly to the farmers based upon how much they have contributed on a pro rated basis. This would apply even if they use grain from another country in their production (otherwise the producers would just start using foreign grains which then would be cheaper). In exchange, we would end any and all other subsidies and "rights" we currently get and we'd have to play like other industries do.

If we all could agree on this and as an industry take this to the respective governments as a group. I bet we could make changes. If however we continue to bicker those who take advantage of us now will be the only ones who are pleased because if we are to busy arguing with each other we have no time to go after them.

In closing rather than get into yet another "pissing match" lets argue the merits and try to fine tune a way that we all can compromise but all win. I leave it to you.

[parsley]

As an organic producer, I want to sell directly to buyers in the Japanese market. Japanese buyers PREFER to buy directly from Canadian farmes,and establish relationships with farmers.

Selling merely in the NA market does not satisfy my focus.
Period. pars

[SASKFARMER3]

I agree Yes or No but why do you need to get a subsidy on every bottle of beer, bun muffin etc. WHY? Do you think the CWB subsidises farmers income, I beg to differ.

[Fransisco]

The basic idea of an open North American market is not new it has been floated before and has never really caught on.

In my opinion it doesn't go far enough but it would be a step in the right direction.

However, I don't think you'd be able to do it without keeping the government involved. I don't see them handing over, to 100 per cent private interests, the exclusive right to export wheat and barley. That kind of thing just doesn't happen.

And I am certainly not in favour of taxing my fellow Canadians on bread and beer for a special subsidy for myself.

Back to point 1, would you allow sales to American and Mexican buyers who are themselves exporters of raw grain?

[parsley]

A government-administered designated area grain-user checkoff simply is another grand scheme, providing accountants, unions, government employees and another CWB department to expand their job base.

Feed grains. I'll leave you to muddle that one.

I note you don't mention property rights.

Getting a piece of the action by creating a collective collection-nightmare is, well, a very drawkcab view, imho. Pars

[PrairieSodBuster]

To Parsley...you prefer, there are many things I prefer to...but what I'm trying to do is find a solution we can all live with. How are we going to do this if half the farmers support a free market system and half prefer the CWB (argue all you want but no group has a majority yet or there would be a change). I know you'll say the votes are rigged...but then surely all the court cases to argue that fact for both parties would have shown that. You can't have it all your own way, especially when there are others out there who don't see it your way. So my question is what would you be willing to give up to achieve a consensus? If the majority rules you may lose what you prefer. By the way is it wheat or barley you are selling to the Japanese. I suspect it is Barley for beer? I'd rather turn my barley into beer here and ship it to them, but of course the CWB would be involved.

To SaskFarmer3. I put that in there to placate the farmers who feel they should have a bigger take and you know it may help and it can be argued that it isn't really a subsidy but a bigger share or a better reflective share of our grains use in production. Truly I would rather take my grain and turn it into the products that are sold to the stores without me having to do the "CWB dance" of buying it back. Maybe I don't want to be part of a next gen co-operatives, lately co-operatives haven't been that great. If I grew it and I add value to it, then it isn't being exported so I don't need the CWB involved.

There are things I like about the CWB, but just as many things I don't like, because grain is a commodity that is subject to the vagaries of the commodities market. To me I'd rather turn my grain into a value added product and cut out the grain companies, and have more options for transport

[PrairieSodBuster]

Parsley define property rights...you only in land you own the topsoil unless you are one of those few who own their mineral rights and wait after you die they will revert to "the crown". Sometimes "the crown" feels other things you "own" are necessary for the greater good and they take them and give you what they think is a fair price. We farmers are not exclusive in expropriation of our "property".

I think if you read my previous comment you'll get a feeling about how I feel about "owning" the grain I produce. Generally I'm willing to give up any advantage the government gives me and anything they provide a break on if I can have the right to turn my grain into anything I want without having to "buy it back" from the the CWB. On the same token if I am happy to sell it through them or feel I gain an advantage from selling it through the CWB then I must also be willing to give up some of my "property rights" to them as a means of doing business.

[PrairieSodBuster]

To Francisco...yeah I'll admit that if we are true "businessmen" we should be able to find ways to make a profit without a special tax. Lets take that one off the table. Unless someone has a better pro argument ( I use the word argument loosely so as not to initiate a rant).

I think that if you sell your grain to a company that may re-export it, such as an American or Mexican grain company that you have traded your ownership or title of that grain for money and therefore you no longer have the rights of ownership over that grain and they can do whatever they want with it. I think even the most vocal CWB supporter would agree with that.

On your other point that you don't think the government would agree to allow us 100% control of the grain industry. Well they do with the oil companies, they do with the steel companies other than to insure that sufficient steel and oil is maintained in the country or by putting on export tarriffs (very rare). I argue and continue to argue that the more responsible for the grain industry we become the more they will let us take it over. However we have to become a true industry without a lot of the extra benefits we might receive and we need to show that we can work together for the benefit of the industry, because no one gets a completely free ride not the oil companies, not the steel companies and with anything if you are incapable of being responsible, someone will legislate you to become responsible.

You know they laugh at us as we argue, and continue to argue the same positions and arguments year after year after year with no resolve. I just would like one time to blow their socks off buy having a uniform coherent strategy that will benefit most if not all farmers. Don't get me wrong we've come a longer way a lot further than many farmers in the US and Europe but we still have way to go.

[Fransisco]

Exactly which oil and steel companies have the exclusive right to export from Canada? I have never heard of such a thing.

[parsley]

WE CANNOT DISCUSS IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO READ:

"I want to sell directly"

No 'prefer' here.
I didn't say 'like to sell directly'
I didn't say 'maybe'
I didn't say 'should'

I said "I want".
Period.
It's NOT NEGOTIABLE


I said the Japanese prefer.

[parsley]

You go ahead and concede, give up, trade, barter any of your own property rights and frankly I domn't give a damn.

Stay away from my property, though. Stay awauy from negotiatiung any conditions that involve my property.

And just so we're clear, do not under any circumstances, speak for me or my wheat or barley.

I absolutley despise panty-waists that weep when the going is tough and will negotiate for random gain. Pars

[Fransisco]

If we could sell our grain to someone in the border states who is in the export business that would pretty much get us a world price minus the extra transportation cost. Again, not perfect but probably better than what we've got now.

I don't see the monopoly die-hards going for this at all and my guess is that those who want to be able to sell their grain to whomever they want will still be making their case as well. The wheat board would still be costing them money and putting them at a competitive disadvantage.

The nature of compromise is that no one is ever completely happy. Would more people be satisfied with this particular compromise than the status quo? Perhaps, but I don't see it putting an end to the debate.

[Fransisco]

prairiesodbuster said, "I just would like one time to blow their socks off buy having a uniform coherent strategy that will benefit most if not all farmers."

Thats pretty tough to do when we can't even agree on basic principles. Like being able to agree to disagree on something and simply going our seperate ways.

[parsley]

There is absolutely NO negotiating being able to choose.

It's like disabling the trigger on a gun.

Once you have lost the basic action, what is left?

Submission? Relegation? Bribing?

To subscribe to any of them castrates novelty, castrates ingenuity, castrates bolts out of the blue, because each one of us has that original spark that often no one else is able to ignite in the right place at the right time.

Choice is what enables you to be you. Parsley

[fjlip]

All options are complicated. More rules and costs. Nightmare to administer. A CWB without the monopoly, that could contract every grain grown for those who wish to use it and a completely open world market choice would make everyone happy. So simple, yet so much rhetoric. As neighbor said, "hope to live to see it change". One last hope is the next federal election. Maybe a slight chance of change. If we don't see a majority, sorry guys, IMO, game over.