help the small farmers

[Deb]

Why cant the the goverment pay a higher price for the first 10,000 bushels that a farmer produces. They could have a few different choices what different crops you could grow. "EVERY household" (NOT every permit book) would get paid a higher price for the first 10,000 bushels of product that they produce. Any body that would get caught abusing the system could be charged with fraud. There would have to be exceptions in case of a crop failure. They would not have to use CFIP or other programs and save alot of paper work.

If we got $10 a bushel for the first 10,000 bushel we produce we would not have to farm as much land to make a living. There would be more small farms and the farmers who have jobs off the farm would not need the off farm jobs no longer. That would create alot of jobs in the rural areas. People would not have to move to the city to find work. ANd people from the cities could move to the rural areas to work. There would be more small farm equipment sold and the population would grow in the rural areas. It would help the schools, hospitals rural merchants it would be good for everybody.

The price of land would go up for the older farmers that want to sell it. It would be profitable for young farmers to buy the land if they could make a living off of 640 -1000 acres. There would be no incentive to be a big farmer.

I am 31 years old and I have been farming with my dad and my uncle for the last 6 years. My goal is to make a living just farming. Right now I also have a custom grain hauling business and my wife is a teacher which helps out. It feels like I will never reach my goal. When I look at all the farms in our area and how old most of the farmers are, I sure think there will be lots of changes in the next 5-10 years. There is not many young farmers to take over and the farms will just get bigger.



It would sure be nice to see more young farmers get started and have more small farms again or is that a thing of the past?

[Steve]

Gizen.


You sure know how to design a perfect world, but you still forgot something ( the government should pay the farmers their expenses to spend the winters in the south were its nice and warm ) so you can employ people to look after your farm.

[cakadu]

It doesn't just happen in beef, it happens with other red meats as well. I know of a processor that buys up sheep in various places and then maintains them until they need them at some point. How do I know, - because some of the sheep are kept just up the road from me.

I'm not sure why they do this. My guess would be that they want to have some available in case animals don't come in or there is a greater demand one week or something to that effect.

[TOM4CWB]

Gizen,

I am worried about your plan.

If we took all the families that work on our farm, then we could apply for all the wheat we grow normally!

This would cost the governement billions, but I am sure that part time farmers would be just as much involved as they are now!

Just who would deserve this subsidy, and who would not?

Steve may be a little mean, but...
the truth is that hard work is the only way to make a living if it is an honest living!

And this means spending 2500hrs/year minimum just on farming and farm management!

How many hours a week do you spend on marketing and market development?

How can we know what is profitable to grow on our farm, unless we work hard to discover what exactly is profitable?

[TOM4CWB]

I have worked hard in the past and I got paid good for the work I done. I worked on the oil rigs for 7 years sometimes working 2 weeks at a time 12 hours a day every day. With a week off in between. The odd time I would work 5 weeks in a row 12 hours a day. I work harder now on the farm than I did then.

Now on the farm I work 12 -14 hours a day in the summer time. Plus 2-4 hours on top of that hauling and shoveling grain. If I get any time off I am doing my books and making out bills lining up loads to haul and marketing our product. So What I am trying to say is I am not afraid of work. I probily spend close to 4000 hours a year working on the farm, marketing and trucking grain. If steve wants to find out he can come work with me for a few days. When the CWB calls the next durum contract. I will save 5 or 6 wooden grain bins for him to help me shovel out the day he comes. Maybee a couple of bins of canary seed also.

We have grown other crops the last few years and we have had some luck and marketed them for a good price. Last year I sold my red lentils for 20 cents a pound cleaned and our kabuli chickpeas for seed at 65 cents a pound treated and cleaned. Our desis for 18.5 cents a pound and our laird lentils for 18 cents a pound.

We have been growing pulse crops the last 5 years and have done very well with them until this last year with the drought. Pulse crops make alot more gross money but when you figure out the input costs and the higher repair bills for the machinery is it worth it? It was with the prices in the past but it does not look as good in the future. I was at pulse days in Saskatoon and the future does not look to bright.

I do not think the goverment should just give the farmers money. But they could do something. Some farmers are lazy and do not deserve to farm but there is lots of good farmers as well. It would almost be impossible for a young person to start farming now if they had to do it on their own. There might be the odd person and if they could do it I would like to know how.



The plan I had was just an idea but lots of you are smart people and I wanted to hear the pros and cons of the plan. I am just a dumb farmer with a strong back that gets alot of time to think when I am driving truck or tractor.

[TOM4CWB]

It would be hard to regulate my plan. But if they only would pay people that were active farmers. The people who rent their land out could get higher cash rent from some farmer because there would be more farmers and land would be in demand.


I was just using $10 a bushel as an example even if they would have a bottom price of $7 bushel for durum and wheat $4 for barley. Get rid of the cfip and just go with something like this.

There would be more farmers and more people to rent land. Every household should gross $70,000-$100,00 on the farm with the input cost and investment into machinery and land and so on. The net income would be no higher than that of teacher or nurse or whatever.

[Steve]

Gizen


I didn’t say how hard you work or don’t work, but your out to lunch with this proposed grain marketing plan. If you want to talk about shoveling grain I did that before we had grain augers.

I don’t like the expression “ I use too,” but will do whatever to progress into the future. I don’t know where you’re coming from with statements like: “There would be no incentives to be a big farmer.”

Some people will always be employers and others employees. ( please read my comments on Today’s Farmer Nov. 16 to backup this statement )

You should also stop and realize who and what the Government is, because to me it seems like you don’t understand, that there are more people in the world than farmers. You could say we produce the grain and cattle, but there is a long food chain past your gate. There are industries to make and fuel your equipment and all them other necessities of life that the Government has to participate in, because there are the greedy, the needy, the good and the ugly in this good world of ours.

Regards Steve.

[charliep]

Gizen

I think what you are highlighting is the difficulty of starting farming. Getting started farming these days (rough numbers - others may disagree) requires a million dollars of investment. The most debt this investment can carry is $300,000. That means a new farmer requires $700,000 of equity/cash (earn off farm/invest, win it, marry it or bury it).

You also highlight the impact of bigger farms on rural communties - harder to provide services for a smaller population base.

I thought I would throw up a couple of ideas for discussion.

DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT HAS OPPORTUNITY FOR HIGHER MARGINS - I think it will be difficult for a small farmer to compete with a big one in a low margin/commodity world. Where maybe a small farmer can compete is in an enterprise that requires more detail/has size limits to it. Because of time contraints/size of their equipment, a bigger farmer can't do it.

LOOK AT SOMETHING YOU CAN ADD VALUE TO YOUR PRODUCTS ON FARM. A person can go through some other example but one that comes to mind is a hog finishing barn tied into a contract with a larger farrowing barn (you have to like pigs).

LOOK AT EQUIPMENT SHARING ARRANGEMENTS A comment I get from bigger farmers is the whole area of finding labor (someone with two sticks to rub together for brains that can run a quarter million dollar piece of equipment). The smaller farmers problem is access to reliable higher technology equipment. One thing I see in our community is these two individuals getting together (exchange of labor for equipment use). The big farmer gets someone he can trust to operate his equipment and the smaller is able to keep machinery investment down/have access to new technology.

Others thoughts.

A question for farmers who have been in the business for a while - if you were 20 years younger and starting into the business today, how would you do it?

[Steve]

We all know that it takes money and hard work to start any lucrative business and stay there. The big problem is young farm people go out working first and if they are not successful, come home with no money but want to start farming.

These are the question you should ask yourself before you start a business:

Do I know:
How to manage money?
Understand that this is a long term commitment?
Know the business well enough to compete?
The business takes priority over pleasure?
Have at least 70% of the capital needed?
Will the family understand and help me in hard times?

Options how to start farming if you don’t have the initial capital:

1. If your parents have a large farming operation to support two families, then try to setup a partnership to work for wages and profit sharing.

You should not live in the same yard, therefore buy or rent a quarter of land with buildings near by, so your family could have some independence. This is just about mandatory for the partnership to survive.

2. You can buy a small parcel of land with buildings but must have a reasonable down payment, also use your parents equipment to farm. ( don’t make the most common mistake and talk your folks into buying bigger equipment that is not necessary or affordable. ) You should still have an off the farm job to maintain a good standard of living for your family, because happy people work and stay together

3. You can rent land and buy cattle ( small herd) but you still need a job that is nearby and that pays your living expenses. This takes time to build up a herd and is also labor demanding.

4. Get a long term lease on a hog barn and also contract to finish hogs, but understand this operation is very labor intensive. ( you also may have problems with neighbors due to the bad odors ) You should have a minimum of 70% cash for operating and be very knowledgeable in this operation to control diseases.

Now if you have 70% in cash, then go for it, the sky is the limit and if that doesn’t work, see if you can get your old job.

[Steve]

Steve

Thanks for the Good advice and information. What I am doing now is using my dads and uncles equipment in exchange for my labour. I haul thier grain localy with my super-B trailers and grain truck with no charge to them also. I cash rent land beside the land we allready farm and I am slowly expanding my land that I rent. I have to decide now if I want to buy some land or by another grain truck and trailers to build up my equity. My uncle is 65 and may be selling his share of the equipment to my dad and I so I need to have that %70 to buy into the equipment. I have a ways to goo yet.

[rookie]

I have read with great interest some views from someone who seems to have been at this business for a while and someone who has not. I fall into the catagory of some someone who has not ( I said youg, not stupid ). And to be perfectly honest I love to hear it all. I am especially fond of the comments from those who had to " shovel " that grain before the auger was common place. Those of that generation must certainly have seen some change. As certainly those of my time will also see. But for all the talk, debate, ideas, solutions, complaining, venting and what everelse I've seen , the most obvious advise I'm picking up on is to BE prepared for more change......Why be frustrated about it ? Some will go on, Others will quit, and the neibourhood will change. Just make sure to do one more thing while shovelling or crunching numbers, enjoy it while you can. The only aspect of agriculture that will never change is the endless debates.

[TOM4CWB]

gizen,

1. Do you have a long term strategic plan for the farm you work with and the farm you need to create?

2. Have you shared this plan with your dad and uncle?

3. Is it a priority for your family, your dad and uncle, for this farm to suceed?

4. Are you and your management team working smart? We were told anyone working over 3000hrs on the farm with an over an additional 500hrs above this on outside jobs were headed for the funnyfarm on a health problem (accident on the like)

5. Don't try to do the impossible, life is just too short! Is being a farmer worth spoiling your health, then what would happen to you and your family?

In 2002 in Canada an intergenerational transfer of wealth is required to make a farming operation work, to maintain the equity base, long term. This may not seem fair, however in europe it has been this way for generations, and now Canada is no different!

I believe Charlie P had it pretty straight! Having family buy into a specific vision, and committing resourses to this vision, is the most effective stategy to reaching that specific vision!

Hope this helps a little?

[ianben]

Not much specific help for young farmer here in UK either.
Money needed is probablally greater too
no way for young to enter without familly help or other windfall.
These are the real subsidies we have over here the personal ones people pay to farm.
There can be real upset when things don't workout. I have seen both young and old heartbroken when there has been a break down in comunications.
Make sure you all want the same thing Gizen.
France has a cheaper loan system for young farmers. I think you have to be under 40 to qualify and dont even need to be French. I have often thought this could be a real help and should be easy to regulate.
I must admit the capital required today is the real stumbling block we are talking lottery wins aren't we.
Would I start again today?
Well like Gizen I would try but not sure I would try to farm full time.
Looks like you got the making of a good life Wife working as teacher, trucking income, and farm income. Grain haulage should help find land to rent.
Why try to put all your eggs in one basket.
Buy a grain vac and stop shovelling would be my advice.

[smcgrath76]

This is actually fairly common among large beef processing plants and is becoming more common among smaller plants as well. An example would be Lakeside feeders at Brooks.
You can argue the motives, but a large part of the reason for large plants is simply the volume of cattle that they kill.
A large plant can kill around 4000 head per day. In order to ensure that the plant runs to capacity, they secure cattle into their own lots (or own cattle in custom lots) so they can schedule deliveries to keep the plant running at capacity.
While I am not qualified to comment, I have heard figures of what it costs for every minute a plant is not running at peak (shut down), and they are astronomical. If anyone has a better feel for this, or some more reliable numbers please feel free to insert them here.
There are definitely issues about market control and price fixing. Whether or not they own a feedlot or just control cattle on custom feed, but this also has to be balanced against delivery and as was pointed out, the ability to fill unusually large orders.