Regulation, Procedures, and Rules for Triffid

[parsley]

Let your mind run wild. What are the only ways for the gene to get there if due diligence was followed?

[ward.toma]

We all know there are many ways for that
to happen, on and off farm. Which is why
approvals for your product should be
obtained in your markets prior to release.

[parsley]

Approval has indeed been given by the market in Europe to buy Canadian organic flax.

But there is one element over which organic growers have no control, and of which the Univerity of Saskatchewan canola breeders never anticipated, either .

It's called cross-pollination.

Cross pollination has indeed been an uncontrollable consequence for the canola breeder.

Do you suppose offficials such as Gordon Pugh has inquiries about cross-pollination?

Which brings us to property rights and responsibility, doesn't it?

When commerical action/inventions destroys markets, and destroys property by permanently changing a commodity's basic quality, there should be a compensatory action plan.

I realize thatin some jurisdictions, that compensation and property rights may be a foreign concept.

But I place them on the table. Again.

Parsley

[oneoff]

You ask about potatoes and as I recall; cutting the eyes out of a potato will yield identical tubers generation after generation. So if you are sure that you keep cutting the "eyes" from your favorite seed stock; and have always selected the sprouts and eyes from that line which dates back prior to GM monkey busines on potatoes; then sure it should test negative and should indeed have no detectable trace of GM material. It indeed should have no GM material in any of your tubers grown in that way (past, present and future).
However if potato flowers (above ground) and if potatos have any chance of cross pollination and if there were any GM pollen available anytime in the past; and if you even once grew your favorite potato variety from those potato seeds (not eyes because I am pretty sure they clone themselves in a simple reliable method of sowing a potato crop) then all bets are off that there isn't any chance that you are now propogating GM potatoes; and maybe every last one of your crop is GM material tainted.
Parsley: It's not a matter of being careful; or thinking your production is GM free. The genie is out of the bottle; and can't be put back in. You can't test for 0%; and if your could the test usually destroys the sample. (and remember the inherent problem of getting a representative sample; the test limitations and sensitivities; sources of error etc.etc.

When the golden or yellow flax has red or brown seeds in it and its virtually impossible to keep them out; then no one knows the heritage of the red or brown ones. You don't even know for sure about the golden flax if researchers are wrong about it being 100% non cross-pollinatable. The industry says that flax doesn't cross pollinate; but sure as heck there are rare instances and thats all it would take. For all anyone knows' maybe thats how the occassional red and brown seed get to show up in registered seed growers golden and yellow flax.
You say use our imaginations about ways that ccontamination may happen. Well it could be a any simple accident; mistake; spill; mixing; pollination event; deliberate act; natural occurance; deliberate selection or combination thereof.
It has happened with flax; and neither you nor I can ever escape the effects. None of the flax production can ever be known Triffid-free when there is absolutely no way of currently detecting that fact.

[oneoff]

As for other crops and species; a very good starting point are the notes that GM government regulators require to be conducted about the crop you may be interested in including some GM material in.( I don't recall the agency where they are posted)

In those reports you will find very comprehensive reports citingup to hundred or more year old reseach on the characteristics of crops such as flax. It's very interesting reading; and will outline the crops wild relatives that may be impacted when out-crossing will inevitably occur.
The list may very well include some of your most favorite varieties that may take on GM traits; without you ever knowing or expecting it.

[wd9]

So does Canada's organic flax have zero triffid in it? At what level has it tested at?

[parsley]

My point, oneoff, is, IF there is harm, (you claim GM harm is inescapable),then responsibility goes with with it. Is that a fair statement? Pars

[parsley]

You probably can't speak for all Canada's seed growers, nor can I speak for all of Canada's organic growers. Pars

[TOM4CWB]

wd9,

Who is testing to see if our wheat is GM free?

[charliep]

What is everyones definition of GM? Hard to test for something when there isn't agree on what it is?

Is clearfield wheat a GM variety? Will the new flaxseed developed by directed mutagenesis be GM? By whose definition?

By the CFIA definition, all plants developed in Canada are genetically modified.

Perhaps the most interesting part of the discussion was Parsleys highlight of the USDA release on Alfalfa/Vilsack's statement.

Nobody commented on it or Parsley's suggestions for change.

[URL="http://agriville.com/cgi-bin/forums/viewThread.cgi?1294249326"]USDA[/URL]

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie,

All the RR Wheat grown out at Indian Head... I understand they had RR Superb at field scale.

[bucket]

There was also supposedly a rr wheat field in an irrigation district near lake diefenbaker.

If they are going to multiple something, they are not going to do it on dryland. Food for thought, folks.

And if they were testing wheat for the rr gene out of canada they would have found it already. Its being done no doubt.

[wd9]

So is it possible that since triffid is in 35 countries, at the CDC, and has been floating around for at least a decade in Canada there is no Canadian Organic Flax?

For illustration 1 ppt is approximately 1 canola seed in 100 B trains. And even that is a long way from zero as per organic specification.

[parsley]

"So is it possible"

Of course.
Anything is possible.

It is also possible that a stealth terminator gene hiding in xp45-flax, created in some obscure lab in the China Instiute at the U of Alberta, :<) , and multiplied on wd's farm, is slowly killing its' way over the Prairies, and wd is the only one with a patented flaxseed which he will release in 2012.

Testing is important.

German tests and USA tests done on Canadian organic flax, that I have heard about directly, so far, have come back negative.

I have not spoken directly to anyone tested in Saskatchewan.

Germany in particular, are viewed as good at what they do, by organics, and are very aggressive about testing when shipments arrive and also after the product is manufactured.

Sophisticated equipment they use, identifies the presence of chemical resulting from spray drift: identifies the presence of Events in all grain; is able to identify which Canadian canola Events are present in mustard in the mayonnaise slathered on meatballs, as a result of pollen drift transferred from canola to mustard plants in the farmer's field.

They are able to identify which Industrial Flax Events from Saskatchewan farmers and shipped by Viterra to a German manufacturer are present in jumping horses' rations in Frankfurt.

Linseed grown for linoleum will be eaten in flax bread in Winnipeg tommorow morning.

Is traceability possible? Yes.

How is it working for Canada's food Inspectors? Good

How is it working for Canada's food eaters? Bad

Testing has become a game of hiding, doctoring, delaying, chasing cars, confusion and playing word games, and calculated deception.

I have no time for it, wd.

I press the issue of compensation for destroying organic sales....not because I eye up money, but rather because when compensation is put on the table, when responsibility is put on the table, all of a sudden players pay attention, saying, "What, me pay?"

Innovation holds promise. "Moving forward", as charliep says and says, lol, is inevitable.

But food is too important to NOT view the ramifications of modifying basic food.. what it hopefully can be OR might unfortunately become:
guesswork,
excitement,
irreversible,
unaccountable,
potential,
harmful,
healthy
unhealthier
moneymaker
national financial disaster
responsible
irresponsible
life enhanicng
life destroying
and so on

Farmers are front line. We know what risk is. We have the biggest stake of all.

Every breeder growing modified plots should be listed on a website. Neighboring farmers are their allies, NOT their enemies. We are valuable for watching for traits, weeds, crosses and so on.

One of the most important aspects of science is to acknowledge it is risk and treat it like risk.

As an organic grower in wd's world-lab, I am your backup point. Backup farm, so to speak, just as are seed stock rooms storing original seed in many countries. A farmer's point of reference.

Cell stems.

Backup has an important function in the world of flax; in the world of all crops, doesn't it. Hope we are NOT contaminated and won't be.

Testing is only as good as the rules and ethics that govern it.
Pars

[charliep]

Just curious in your world how you deal with mother nature based
mutationns - example might be a mycotoxin/mold that becomes more
virulent and poses a human health concern/market access issue.