Haney and the Wheat Board sitting in a tree...

[Fransisco]

Oh yeah, in the "real world" nobody looks after their own money or makes their own decisions. How silly of me. LOL

[bucket]

The railcars can move from thunder bay to vancouver and benefit every farmer in the process. The same can not be said of the lakers.

And can someone explain exactly how we make money leasing something we own? We lease railcars to somebody for revenue and turn around and pay a higher freight rate to somebody so they can cover their lease rate.

[BTOfarmall]

If'n it walk like a Duck, Quack like a Duck, Guess What??? It a Duck.....

Hayknee one of dem. Always has Been, Always will be, Knew it from Day One. Gist another Puppet of da Industry. What else is New. FOLLOW THE MONEY.....

[jdepape]

Interesting argument comparing the purchase of railcars in 2005 and the purchase of lakers in 2011.

One key difference is how the CWB handled the two messages. In 2005, the release announcing the purchase only talked about how the CWB was purchasing these cars and how great a deal it was for farmers, yada, yada, yada. It went on to say that negotiotions were ongoing so it would report the cost later in the Annual Report.

The only reference to the purchase in the Annual Report was a footnote in the financial statments under "Capital Assets" (Annual Report 2005-06, page 73). No announcement, no self-congratulatory feature page in the report. BTW - they bought 1663 cars for $25.828 million - or $15,530 per car.

Now look at the laker announcement. Not just a simple news release - a full blown web-linked press conference. And they gave the cost right up front and that it would come out of the pool accounts.

Some would say the CWB made a tactical error by making such a big deal about it.

I think the mistake was made in 2005 - not enough disclosure - quietly announced the pending deal with no details, then just minimal reporting in the Annual Reports - just enough to be in compliance with financial reporting requirements.

I wonder how farmers would have reacted back in 2005 if they really knew what was actually happening.

[jdepape]

Just a point of clarification.

I see a number of guys complaining that their grain moves to the west coast andso won't even benefit from the laker purchase.

Not defending the purchase in anyway, but the financial return from the lakers - the $10 million a year they talk about - will go into "revenue from other sources" which is distributed to the pool accounts. So it doesn't matter which direction your grain goes.

[bucket]

But it takes eight years before they are making money to give to the pools.

Basically it will end up like the railcars - there is no gain from owning them. Freight rates haven't come down. They don't haul more with them. And they are always empty coming back.

If all this makes sense to anyone, then why doesn't the cwb buy semis and pick the grain up at the farm and then charge the cost to their customers? If raicars and ships make sense then the logic says so does owning semis as well. Then the cwb can ship the grain from the farm to the right terminal and use their logistics to speed up grain handling. Just what CN was asking for.

[rockpile]

Bucket - since 1980 there have been only 3 investor
sources for the purchase of hopper cars for grain
movement: The Feds, the Provinces (AB and Sask)
and the CWB. Period. The RR's clearly stated they
had no interest in buying cars for any bulk
commodity. Did freight rates come down? I don't
know. The only option on the table was buy the cars
or stop shipping. The two big winners in all of this
are CP and CN. No wonder Burbert calls it
'Comedia'.
Thanks for the insight John. I believe the 2005
purchase was to replenish the fleet due to cars
wrecked or otherwise retired (metal fatigue). So had
there been a big dust up in 2005 in the farming
community - what would the options have been?
Same question re any of the railcar purchases?
Geez, don't even bring trucks into it!!!
Rockpile

[bucket]

Buy trucks and don't use the rails until they come back with a reasonable rate. At least trucks can get a backhaul.

Better yet, buy trucks and pay me to haul grain to the west coast or thunder bay. And give me a back haul for the ride back.

We are going backwards as a nation tearing up raillines, might as well go to using semis if the railways can't make a profit by just hooking up a locomotive to a 100 car unit train.

[TOM4CWB]

Depape,

We both know that private interests could find more cost effective methods of getting board grains to the market that pays the best for growers.

This is the issue. Get the politics out and economics of the farm gate in... and the ships lower the farm gate returns for at least a decade (I do not trust CWB projections or business plan for one second). Hence my family farm in Alberta will see a net loss in all grains produced for a very long time to come!!!

There is no net benefit to my farm... likely EVER.

[Koldkanuck]

What I really want to know, is why the hell do we have to unload our wheat in Thunder Bay, just to get reloaded on laker's that have to go through a bunch of locks, and use transfer terminals to get our grain to port, when the train can do the same without stopping. We can rail it 1,500 miles to the west coast through mountains and sh*t, or rail it over the muskeg to Churchill, but can't rail it to Montreal? But then people like Paul Martin and his cronie Liberal friends can't get a piece of the pie. No wonder the Liberals and Bloc will always vote to have the CWB in place. Follow the money.

[dalek]

Koldkanuck you might want to be careful about
wishing to send your wheat to Montreal by rail. If
you look on a map sometime about 2 hours east of
Toronto you'll notice the CP and CN lines actually
cross over each other there. If you look closer still
you'll find that the crossover point is actually ON
the Tyendinaga Mohawk reserve. Meaning 2 or 3
Mohawks can (and have) tied up ALL rail travel
between Toronto (and points west) and Montreal for
days and weeks at a time, and the OPP won't touch
them. Something neither CP or CN want their
customers to pay too much attention to (although
CN did just announce a big funding deal with the
reserve, in hopes that they could prevent anything
in the future, as if it will help)

[BTOfarmall]

Kold da reason dey don't wanna rail it to Montreal is cause it cost Alotta Money. Once on da Ship at Thunder Bay it costs almost nuttin to git it to the Post of Montreal. Heck back in da Fall of 08' it only cost $25 per MT to bring Fertilizer in from da Black Sea Region. Movin stuff on water is da cheapest way to move tings. DO THE MATH.

[jdepape]

TBay to Montreal laker frt rates typically ranges between $17 and $25 per tonne.

Rail about the same but can't do all the volume.

[TOM4CWB]

BTO,

If the CWB had you in charge of the ship pool they just joined... they would lose $10M/year!

As soon as the FSU gets back into more normal grain production... the CWB will wish they never heard of a boat anchor... let alone own one!

Especially WHEN the Conservatives get the majority!!! We will let the Bloc/Quebec Wheat Board pay for their ships from their equalisation payments!