Either way life will go on!

[Fransisco]

Only a die hard socialist would think of more freedom and greater profits as... "chaos".

[wd9]

Wilagro, your answer is as expected. Maybe Integrity-farmer can help you out.

[PrairieSodBuster]

Okay I'm not quite off the soapbox yet. I need to answer back some points brought up by a few people.

First point. Very few if any containers get back hauled empty back to China it's cheaper for them to build new ones. They get unloaded and someone buys them up to resale to farmers, small business owners etc. I have a few on my place right now being used as first rate storage for spare parts and stuff I find a good deal on. I suspect many of you do as well.

However I think that shipping grain back in containers is a good idea. I'm just not sure it has got to the stage yet where it could support the whole industry. Is there efficiency? What is the costs and ultimately is it any cheaper than the current system? The solution then may not be just one thing but many different things, or local initiatives.

Why is it that if we don't agree with your position we are socialists. I have voted center-right for all my life. You might call me a red Tory or a blue Liberal, but I have never voted for the NDP ever, ever. Also as I have said again and again and again ad nauseum I support a center of the road common ground approach, but am always labelled one side or the other (usually the opposite of the person deriding me). However I won't get pissed off this time or get baited into another verbal brawl. It's just a no win situation and I have better things to do with my time.

You've won, what more do you need? Do you also need the satisfaction of smashing your "enemy" in the face. Another group in the 30's also had that satisfaction and look what happened. I personally don't care what you say about me, but maybe I'm just asking for a once civilized people to practice "grace and generosity in victory and nobility in defeat"...because the course is now set and I don't see it changing and there are much bigger fish to fry now.

[Fransisco]

"Why is it that if we don't agree with your position we are socialists?"

Someone who disagrees with me is not automatically a socialist.

But if someone, like wilagro, consistently takes a socialist position, like on the single desk, and uses socialist arguments, like freedom sucks, they should not be surprised if someone, at sometime, calls them a socialist.

I also find it interesting that socialists take offense at being identified as to what they are. I've been called many things, Libertarian, free marketer, Conservative, free trader, none of which I personally find offensive,because in one way or another its basically true.

[charliep]

PrairieSodBuster,

I agree with your last paragraph.

Any thoughts on how you would move this discussion from win/loss to ideas about moving the new CWB forward. Could be contracting programs for farmers that they would commit to early in the crop year. Could be access for the new CWB elevator/transportation system (commercial and/or regulated). Could be continuation of government quarantees on CWB borrowing until WTO comes into effect. Could specialized programs so the new CWB can add value to grain companies sales programs (eg. moving market development and branding programs outside the CWB to CIGI or a new organization). Could be a capital injection into the new CWB or funding some of the current CWB activities (see 2006 task force). The list could go on. Is there any format for having this type of discussion by the industry or is it simply a black and white issue portrayed here?

[Fransisco]

PSB- Since you consider yourself a centrist think about the following quote from Bishop Desmond Tutu. It might put things in a bit better perspective for you.

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”

Being a "centrist" does not automatically put one on the high road of any argument.

We may have won, but for now the elephant is still very much on our tail and from all accounts will remain there till well after next Christmas. I for one don't appreciate the people who are vigorously arguing that the elephant should remain where it is. Particularly when it is still inflicting a lot of damage.

[Fransisco]

PSB- Since you consider yourself a centrist think about the following quote from Bishop Desmond Tutu. It might put things in a bit better perspective for you.

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”

Being a "centrist" does not automatically put one on the high road of any argument.

We may have won, but for now the elephant is still very much on our tail and from all accounts will remain there till well after next Christmas. I for one don't appreciate the people who are vigorously arguing that the elephant should remain where it is. Particularly when it is still inflicting a lot of damage.

[wd9]

To suggest the next steps of the CWB is like us posting suggestions for the next steps of Cargill. Pointless. The steps must and will come from the board of DIRECTORS of the CWB and we all know the type of business sense and innovation they have. That is the problem.

[freewheat]

Precisely, wd9.

[PrairieSodBuster]

Francisco all I can say is you proved my point once again, ad nauseum, over and over again, forever and ever amen!!!

Maybe you can comprehend that things generally just don't come to a screeching halt there usually is a drawdown. You've been fighting this battle for a long time, is five months going to kill you. No it won't! What Allen Oberg is doing or might do is irrelavent as much as he is or will be.

It is also very obvious that you want to bait me once again, because you think it is such good sport. Really all it proves is you can be a jerk. Hey instead of calling me a socialist why not go all the way and call me a Commie...which will be very amusing, ironic and an oxymoron because then I'd be a Marxist Capitalist. I ask you don't you have anything better to do besides bitch away here looking to bait another poor little CWB Supporter real or imagined.

Finally is the Desmond Tutu quote the only one you have for us "fence sitters". First apartheid was way worse than anything you've had to endure under the CWB and the quotes context was in regards to apartheid where one race had dominion over another. Shame on you for even thinking your "plight" is similar. Furthermore Desmond Tutu for the most part is a man that looks for compromise, as did Nelson Mandela otherwise you would have a situation in South Africa similar to that in Zimbabwe with Robert Mugabe. Hmmmm is Allen Oberg Robert Mugabe...perhaps in intellect but not in oppression.

hey buddy I'm on vacation (Stampede Week and all) please feel free to spout I'm game! All those beans have me all fired up! Some might say you are full of them, as equally you are as full of yourself.

[PrairieSodBuster]

Francisco a further add on in regards to Robert Mugabe and Zimbabwe...this is what happens when an extreme occurs. There was no compromise, no attempt to heal past wounds, no desire to work together to find something that works for all, not like Nelson Mandela (supported by Desmond Tutu) did in South Africa Zimbabwe is considered a failed state. It's economy has collapsed. All the white farmers lost their farms and were chased out of the country or killed. An extreme, kind of like "either you are with us or against us" that you always demand.

For most of my life I belonged to co-operatives such as the Alberta Wheat Pool, UFA and when they were around Co-op Implements (great idea, okay equipment...but management sucked). They were built on the idea of working together, combining resources, co-operation and
everyone gaining a benefit. If that makes me a socialist you bet guilty as charged.

I like to think I am community minded. What killed them is an apathetic membership who only cared about their patronage cheques, boards that were more interested in being pampered and playing golf and management that was only interested in building empires and compensation equivilent to the rest of the industry.

The CWB could and should have been built into something that still kept the benefits it did have, but have more farmer control with less bureaucrats warming seats and more go getters going out and getting deals and selling our grain for us, not for the government, not for a political party's agenda or the grain handlers wetdream, but for us. Something we create not just a copy of someone elses idea. Because of the extremes on both sides this will never have the opportunity of happening.

There will be fall out, and there will be opportunities just as there was when the Crow was dropped. The CWB isn't the real issue...it is consolidation of farms and maybe the CWB slowed this a bit (maybe not, I'm spitballing now). I would say anyone who has less than 10,000 acres won't be around in five years. However it is inevitable as it is with any commodity based business. I would prefer that we all work together and co-operate, but we don't have too, I have no problem being equally cutthroat if it means the survival of my business as I suspect all of us are now or will be. Just keep in mind that if it gets brutal there are some of you on either side of the issue who won't be here arguing in a few years or you might be here shaking your fist as you are on your way out of the industry. Lets just see what happens in five or ten years...nothing is ever as cut and dried as we imagine it will be. There will be winners and there will be losers from both sides of the issue...life will go on.

So you can call me all the names you want, you can say I'm weak because I don't adopt your point of view. But don't ever underestimate me because I do understand what is going on and what the outcomes could be and I have my plans made for any eventuality. Instead of wasting time shaking your fist at a dying enemy, you might just want to be doing the same.

[Fransisco]

"Hey instead of calling me a socialist why not go all the way and call me a Commie...which will be very amusing,"

Read the thread again, from the top, slowly and carefully. I never called you a socialist. I called Wilagro a socialist. Are you blowing a gasket because you're really Wilagro?

And you really don't understand my position if you characterize it as an "either you are with us or against us" Robert Mugabe kind of stand.

I want to be able to be able to sell my grain to whomever I want. If everyone else wants to sell their grain to the wheat board I don't have a problem with it as long as its not compulsory. That's why I have always maintained that it should be voluntary.

You can't get more compromising or accommodating than that. But for you PSB somehow that is just far to "extreme". You're sounding less and less like a fence sitting, middle of the roader and more like an extremist yourself, the more you ramble on.

[PrairieSodBuster]

Francisco I note that you love to cut and paste, maybe put the whole sentence in.

So Wilagro is a socialist but I'm not (no I'm not Wilagro) I was a fence sitter but now I'm not. Maybe you should look at your own position and see if it is moving too. We can use the CWB if we want...well no it will soon be gone so I guess we can't.

Truly all I want is for both extremes to shut-up, its over, the winners and losers have been decided and there is nothing that Allen Oberg can do about that. His plebiscite will be meaningless, yes it is a waste of money, but I suspect it is CWB Supporter money more than yours as I assume you don't "do board grain". If it is (your money) there is always a legal option that you could pursue. Have your day in court like normal people.

Lets move on to something else. Truly I'm sick of hearing both the Pro and the Anti guys bitching for the last 20 years and I suspect so is the government. But you just won't be happy! You won!!! YOU WON!!! enjoy it already.

[Fransisco]

The legislation has yet to pass.

And if all goes well I expect it should by next christmas. But until then the mono's are going to be kicking and screaming their collective heads off trying to keep it from happening. If you think people are just going to sit back and let them have the floor all to themselves without challenging their silly arguments you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Fransisco]

PSB, "We can use the CWB if we want...well no it will soon be gone so I guess we can't."

The only thing that will be gone is the single desk which didn't contribute a nickels worth of value back to rank and file farmers. If you want to market your grain, collectively, cooperatively, together with others or however you want to put it that option is still there. But you actually have to want to do it, and do it. People have to quite sulking about the "monopoly" and realize they can still work together but its up to them to do it not someone else.