There was some good information about this subject below. We kind of hijacked a different thread. I thought this was worth bringing to light.
cottonpicken posted Dec 30, 2011 8:59
I'm not sure on this but a lot of guys are leasing bins
to take advantage of the tax angle.
I don't know the numbers but it may be possible that
leasing new is better.
Maybe someone thats done the leg work on used vs
new lease could elaborate.
IP: Logged
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bluefargo posted Dec 30, 2011 9:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I lease all bins and machine sheds. The leasing companies hose you on interest rates. There is very little risk to them on bins. But the fact is the tax advantages far outweigh the the high interest rate.
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FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 9:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But the fact is the tax advantages far outweigh the the high interest rate."
I sincerely doubt that.
If you need a tax deduction, write me a cheque and I'll give you a receipt. A win win, right?
IP: Logged
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Klause posted Dec 30, 2011 12:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're thinking the fert bins... Grain bins we may end
up leasing, or at least buying new...
Hopperbin, how was your Christmas? We may have to
try and sneak by around Jan 15th or so.... as we'll head
back there around then...
IP: Logged
Edit?
FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 12:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost of bin $20,000
lease interest rate 8.63%
lease residual balloon $10,000
bank interest rate 6.00%
Marginal Tax Rate 40.00%
Loan downpayment $4,000
Length of lease/loan 5
Depreciation rate 10.00%
NPV interest cost 6.00%
Lease payment = 3,184
Loan payment = 3,798
Running the numbers through a buy versus lease calculator yields a Net Present Value = roughly breakeven
A higher relative lease interest rate, or lower marginal tax rate would make the lease worse financially.
It's important to know your own numbers.
IP: Logged
Edit?
hobbyfrmr posted Dec 30, 2011 12:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, I dont completely understand your statement.
I lease most of everything for the income tax deduction. Implements, bins, augers, utlility trailers etc. Anything I buy, I would have to borrow the money. So,with a lease I can expense 100% of the cost over the time schedule of the lease. Otherwise, if I purchase outright, I would still borrow the money and make the payments. I would then use the CRA depreciation schedule and it would take 15(?) years to depreciate bins, etc. The tax management alternatives I can think of would be to incorporate my farm, and then be taxed the corporate rate. My farm is small and the accountant does not think incoporation is required so far. Something I forgot, was that some farms have cash and buy items outright. CRA depreciation may work favourably long term.
Bluefargo, As far as the higher interest rate, shop around lease companies, compare their costs and prices and buyout terms,they have different angles to their leasing methods. Purchase prices from the dealer can also be negotiated. Thats about all I know on leasing, it seems to be working for me.
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hobbyfrmr posted Dec 30, 2011 13:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, you answered my question before I posted it!!!
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FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 13:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the above example, if I use a corporate tax rate of 17% (I think that is close, depending on your province?), then the lease has an NPV that is $800 worse than the buy. That's taking interest and depreciation tax implications into account. $800 is quite significant on a $20,000 bin.
I don't know your situation, but if the lease interest rates are very much higher than the bank loan rates, in most of the lease vs. buy scenarios I've looked at, I'd be financially better off buying.
If you know the numbers, I can plug them in for you.
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Saskfarmer99 posted Dec 30, 2011 13:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hobbyfarmer and ranger
Just a couple things:
Although leasing as you presented can be an alternative to managing income tax it is only another method of FINANCING. Bins and buildings are really on the only way to bring deductions in quicker though a lease verses capital cost. On any proper structured lease of normally 20% and 30% capital cost assets, lease verses purchase benefits have a very narrow variance and you mainly end up at the same place after 5 years (especially tractors/combines etc)
I think the main trick to leasing is its a great way to push a sale because of the "easy pmts and tax advantages". Not suggesting that anyone is buying something they don't need but it can be easy to fall into the trap.
And more importantly, if you are talking about incorporating your farm someday, make sure you have the family farm partnership set up at least 2 years in advance of incorporating.
If you are single, create a partnership with your own corporation.
The tax savings and flexibility with this structure far outweigh any lease transaction
IP: Logged
Edit?
highwayman posted Dec 30, 2011 13:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the past, leasing grain bins presented advantage for us when it was calculated with 10% residual and paid out in 3 years. Was able to cash flow it and use the tax savings when needed. Not sure if 10% residual is allowed any longer by CRA.
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FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 13:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good points Saskfarmer99. The tax implications of the 2 year partnership before incorporating can be quite significant.
The problem I've seen with leasing is the easy enticing way people can get lured into leases, especially when you can use your trade-in as the first lease payment. My point was that leases aren't the financial bargain that the salesmen will tell you they are, especially if they jack the interest rate up. Just because something is a total tax write off doesn't mean it's the best decision in the long run.
I created a spreadsheet for analyzing the yearly cashflows from a buy versus lease. You have to take into account the various things affecting cash flow, and the timing of interest/principle/tax savings or any other financial considerations which have cashflow implications.
IP: Logged
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hobbyfrmr posted Dec 30, 2011 15:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Normally I negotiate the purchase price of the items I am going to buy. Then, I call up 3 lease companies, give them the details and then compare scenarios. I do not regard them as just another way to get money to buy stuff. I see your point a salesman will present all options to make a transaction.
About the partnership thing, well I am not that advanced in farm management, I'm the kind of guy just trying to get the kids to dance/hockey and fuel in the vehicles. I will begin to ask about this and I appreciate the insight.
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cottonpicken posted Dec 30, 2011 16:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sask99,what do mean partnership with yourself
and the corporation?
Is it better to keep some assets out of the
corp,and take a higher personal income?
IP: Logged
Edit?
Saskfarmer99 posted Dec 30, 2011 20:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For bachelor's or people that do not wish to partner with a spouse, brother or son/daughter, many accountants may feel that there is no option for this situation.
There are many logical and good reasons not to partner with a family members or relation, not just because someone made a comment that once you create a partnership with your wife that you have given 50% of the farm away. This is not true.
When you create the partnership you have to roll the assets from the proprietor to the partnership. This is done on a tax free basis and tax elections and agreements must be prepared to make it all legal in the eyes of CRA.
When you create the partnership with a corporation, the corporation is your partner and will have a percentage of income assigned to it each year. Generally you would want the percentage allocated to the corporation to be low since you want the value of the partnership you own personally to be the highest it can be when you sell your partnership to the company.
It is the best and only way to achieve a 31% permanent income tax savings on the value of your partnership.
Its the best way to sell the farm, especially for smaller farms where the value of equipment and inventory is around that 1.5 million when they want out. If everything is done right, a farm like this would pay 13% (sask crop rate) and pull the rest of the cash tax free out of the corporation and then wind up the company.
As far as your question about keeping more assets out, I'm not sure what you are specifically meaning here. In general you would want to keep land outside of the company or at least the land you currently own when you incorporate. For those that are expanding, it can be more beneficial to purchase land inside to company because of the higher tax free dollars available. Equipment, buildings and inventory are the assets you want inside as they are the ones that bear the largest tax liability.
For those that have done a direct incorporation without the partnership, you generally will have transferred a lot of land to the company. Now if you wish to retire and sell the farm, you will be forced to take large dividends over many years to get the cash out.'
If your land is inside the company and you wish to keep it, you will have to buy it back out of the company and at fair value at that time. If you wish to rent it out and its inside the company, you will have to report the income personally anyway since rental income is not eligible for the low tax rate in corporations.
About 12 years ago I formed a partnership with my spouse and we incorporated it about 7 years ago. I cannot say I have any regrets. Until the last couple years I kept all my land outside of the company but now have been purchasing new land inside. At some point in time I can gift any personally owned quarters of land to one of my 3 kids whereas if its inside the company I am not able to. It just gives maximum flexilbility in my estate.
The partnership with a company was done with my brother a number of years ago. It worked really slick for him.
IP: Logged
Edit?
Saskfarmer99 posted Dec 30, 2011 20:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading your post again about the only other thing I wish to add is flexibility.
When you keep some farmland outside of the corp you now have another method of compensating yourself - Rent
It really becomes an issue of the following:
a) Do you want to pay into CPP, therfore you pay wages to yourself
b) If you don't want to pay into CPP but want to build RRSP's (to replace the CPP) then rent or rent/wages combo
c) If you want the cheapest tax overall to get income into your own hands, take dividends.
Everyone's situation is different and no two will be the same
IP: Logged
Edit?
bluefargo posted Dec 30, 2011 23:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't let this lease vrs buy argument go without one last comment.
I only lease grain bins and sheds. I lease them over 3 years with a 10% buyout. The depreciation rate is 10% on bins (5% the first year). The lease payments are fully deductable.
At a 40% marginal tax rate there is no comparison. I built a shed this year. There is no way I would have built it unless I could lease.
The tax advantages of leasing buildings are obvious to a non incorporated farmer.
There probably isn't much, if any, tax advantages to leasing class 10 machinery.
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FarmRanger posted Dec 31, 2011 9:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At a 40% MTR, I had to put the interest rate up to 24% for the 3 year lease before it was equal with the 5 year 6% loan.
It's the extremely accelerated depreciation rate that you achieve by writing 90% off in 3 years that gives the lease advantage on buildings. I'm surprised that Canada Revenue Agency allows it.
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bluefargo posted Dec 31, 2011 10:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger
Now we're on the same page! Absolutely it is the accelerated CCA that makes leasing so attractive. In 6 years I have written off 90% of my granary or shed. I too am surprised Rev Canada allows it. It's a real loop hole.
I have heard second hand that a court declared that if you (the leasor) and I (the leasee) say it's a lease, it is a lease. The government has no right to tell us how to run our business. Like I said it was a friend that told me this so I stand to be corrected.
IP: Logged
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bluefargo posted Dec 31, 2011 10:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of you old timers from Alberta might remember Cal Brandly. I think I have the name right. I believe it was him who used to say that any time you did something ONLY for tax reasons you probably did the wrong thing.
Just something to think about.
IP: Logged
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gustgd posted Dec 31, 2011 12:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Besides the accelerated CCA that has already been spoken about in great detail. We also find it easier on cash flow to go the leasing route.
Thanks all for the good discussion
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bluefargo posted Dec 31, 2011 13:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got to make a correction. I was correct in one post but not in the other. I will write off 90% of my bin or shed in 3 years (not 6 as I said in one). I was thinking of my 6 semi annual payments I guess.
Try to write off 90% of your granary using 10% CCA rates in 3 years especially when you are only allowed 5% the first year! I can't help but think that the government will try to plug this loop hole some day.
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FarmRanger posted Dec 31, 2011 14:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point on the tax implications, they are important, but with that $20,000 bin example, even with the 3 year write off, that bin has to generate over $1500 per year in income/savings just to break even. More than $1500/year would be required, if the interest rate on the lease is greater than the 8.6% used in the calculation.
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$short posted Dec 31, 2011 17:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bins we bought last was better to purchase.
If you use a 5 yr lease and 5 year purchase after
the lease is up. The high lease rates are the
killer.
Machinery on the other hand seems to have
better rates.
IP: Logged
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hobbyfrmr posted Jan 1, 2012 21:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, is it fair to compare that $1500/year
savings against the cost of the equivalent volume
grain bags a farm would use instead of the bins? I
know that there are advantages, efficiencies to
bagging, but not all farms require this . Is this still
an accurate line of thought (apples to apples)?
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mbratrud posted Jan 2, 2012 1:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Couple things to contribute from our experience. Lease through your own bank and can get leasing rates for much cheaper. For example just did liquid storage bin for 5%. Secondly recaptured depreciation is your worst consequence down the road. A good balance of leasing and purchasing is good but you have to be careful that on Auction sale day you don't get a big tax surprise. Good discussion.
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FarmRanger posted Jan 2, 2012 11:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hobbyfrmr, it's important to make all financial decisions you look at into ones that are"apples to apples". I use Net Present Value analysis, which brings all future anticipate cash flows back to what they are "worth" today.
If you look at a grain bagger, the first thing you want to do is compare the cost to owning bins. Except for the cost of the bagger and extractor, all your costs for this option are in the future. With bins, most of your costs are up-front. To properly compare the two, NPV analysis is the best way to get all those cash flows back to "apples to apples" equivalent values.
Very often there are other non-monetary preferences that ultimately affect your final decision. One is slightly more expensive, but sometimes you love/hate permanent bins, plowing snow out in your field/dealing with plastic/ shoveling bins/ expandable storage/decreased trucking, etc. The extra / reduced cost of bins versus bags is offset by other non-monetary factors. I like working the numbers out to the point that I know that the present value cost of one decision is $X more expensive than the other. That way I can decide that I am willing to pay that extra money for the one I prefer, or pat myself on the back for deducing and making the lowest cost decision.
For me, I almost have enough bins now, my bins are all close to my fields, and I have a good bin unloading system, so the financial advantages of a bagger would have to be large for me.
If you know the costs of the two options you're looking at, I can walk you through the numbers, but we should probably start a new thread in Machinery & equipment, or Farm Management.
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hobbyfrmr posted Jan 2, 2012 14:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, I do not know up to date costs, I am not interested in bins at this time. I agree, this thread went on a tangent. A repost would be helpful because this is valuable information. I will try to do it!
cottonpicken posted Dec 30, 2011 8:59
I'm not sure on this but a lot of guys are leasing bins
to take advantage of the tax angle.
I don't know the numbers but it may be possible that
leasing new is better.
Maybe someone thats done the leg work on used vs
new lease could elaborate.
IP: Logged
Edit?
bluefargo posted Dec 30, 2011 9:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I lease all bins and machine sheds. The leasing companies hose you on interest rates. There is very little risk to them on bins. But the fact is the tax advantages far outweigh the the high interest rate.
IP: Logged
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FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 9:47
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But the fact is the tax advantages far outweigh the the high interest rate."
I sincerely doubt that.
If you need a tax deduction, write me a cheque and I'll give you a receipt. A win win, right?
IP: Logged
Edit?
Klause posted Dec 30, 2011 12:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We're thinking the fert bins... Grain bins we may end
up leasing, or at least buying new...
Hopperbin, how was your Christmas? We may have to
try and sneak by around Jan 15th or so.... as we'll head
back there around then...
IP: Logged
Edit?
FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 12:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost of bin $20,000
lease interest rate 8.63%
lease residual balloon $10,000
bank interest rate 6.00%
Marginal Tax Rate 40.00%
Loan downpayment $4,000
Length of lease/loan 5
Depreciation rate 10.00%
NPV interest cost 6.00%
Lease payment = 3,184
Loan payment = 3,798
Running the numbers through a buy versus lease calculator yields a Net Present Value = roughly breakeven
A higher relative lease interest rate, or lower marginal tax rate would make the lease worse financially.
It's important to know your own numbers.
IP: Logged
Edit?
hobbyfrmr posted Dec 30, 2011 12:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, I dont completely understand your statement.
I lease most of everything for the income tax deduction. Implements, bins, augers, utlility trailers etc. Anything I buy, I would have to borrow the money. So,with a lease I can expense 100% of the cost over the time schedule of the lease. Otherwise, if I purchase outright, I would still borrow the money and make the payments. I would then use the CRA depreciation schedule and it would take 15(?) years to depreciate bins, etc. The tax management alternatives I can think of would be to incorporate my farm, and then be taxed the corporate rate. My farm is small and the accountant does not think incoporation is required so far. Something I forgot, was that some farms have cash and buy items outright. CRA depreciation may work favourably long term.
Bluefargo, As far as the higher interest rate, shop around lease companies, compare their costs and prices and buyout terms,they have different angles to their leasing methods. Purchase prices from the dealer can also be negotiated. Thats about all I know on leasing, it seems to be working for me.
IP: Logged
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hobbyfrmr posted Dec 30, 2011 13:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, you answered my question before I posted it!!!
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FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 13:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the above example, if I use a corporate tax rate of 17% (I think that is close, depending on your province?), then the lease has an NPV that is $800 worse than the buy. That's taking interest and depreciation tax implications into account. $800 is quite significant on a $20,000 bin.
I don't know your situation, but if the lease interest rates are very much higher than the bank loan rates, in most of the lease vs. buy scenarios I've looked at, I'd be financially better off buying.
If you know the numbers, I can plug them in for you.
IP: Logged
Edit?
Saskfarmer99 posted Dec 30, 2011 13:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hobbyfarmer and ranger
Just a couple things:
Although leasing as you presented can be an alternative to managing income tax it is only another method of FINANCING. Bins and buildings are really on the only way to bring deductions in quicker though a lease verses capital cost. On any proper structured lease of normally 20% and 30% capital cost assets, lease verses purchase benefits have a very narrow variance and you mainly end up at the same place after 5 years (especially tractors/combines etc)
I think the main trick to leasing is its a great way to push a sale because of the "easy pmts and tax advantages". Not suggesting that anyone is buying something they don't need but it can be easy to fall into the trap.
And more importantly, if you are talking about incorporating your farm someday, make sure you have the family farm partnership set up at least 2 years in advance of incorporating.
If you are single, create a partnership with your own corporation.
The tax savings and flexibility with this structure far outweigh any lease transaction
IP: Logged
Edit?
highwayman posted Dec 30, 2011 13:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the past, leasing grain bins presented advantage for us when it was calculated with 10% residual and paid out in 3 years. Was able to cash flow it and use the tax savings when needed. Not sure if 10% residual is allowed any longer by CRA.
IP: Logged
Edit?
FarmRanger posted Dec 30, 2011 13:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good points Saskfarmer99. The tax implications of the 2 year partnership before incorporating can be quite significant.
The problem I've seen with leasing is the easy enticing way people can get lured into leases, especially when you can use your trade-in as the first lease payment. My point was that leases aren't the financial bargain that the salesmen will tell you they are, especially if they jack the interest rate up. Just because something is a total tax write off doesn't mean it's the best decision in the long run.
I created a spreadsheet for analyzing the yearly cashflows from a buy versus lease. You have to take into account the various things affecting cash flow, and the timing of interest/principle/tax savings or any other financial considerations which have cashflow implications.
IP: Logged
Edit?
hobbyfrmr posted Dec 30, 2011 15:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Normally I negotiate the purchase price of the items I am going to buy. Then, I call up 3 lease companies, give them the details and then compare scenarios. I do not regard them as just another way to get money to buy stuff. I see your point a salesman will present all options to make a transaction.
About the partnership thing, well I am not that advanced in farm management, I'm the kind of guy just trying to get the kids to dance/hockey and fuel in the vehicles. I will begin to ask about this and I appreciate the insight.
IP: Logged
Edit?
cottonpicken posted Dec 30, 2011 16:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sask99,what do mean partnership with yourself
and the corporation?
Is it better to keep some assets out of the
corp,and take a higher personal income?
IP: Logged
Edit?
Saskfarmer99 posted Dec 30, 2011 20:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For bachelor's or people that do not wish to partner with a spouse, brother or son/daughter, many accountants may feel that there is no option for this situation.
There are many logical and good reasons not to partner with a family members or relation, not just because someone made a comment that once you create a partnership with your wife that you have given 50% of the farm away. This is not true.
When you create the partnership you have to roll the assets from the proprietor to the partnership. This is done on a tax free basis and tax elections and agreements must be prepared to make it all legal in the eyes of CRA.
When you create the partnership with a corporation, the corporation is your partner and will have a percentage of income assigned to it each year. Generally you would want the percentage allocated to the corporation to be low since you want the value of the partnership you own personally to be the highest it can be when you sell your partnership to the company.
It is the best and only way to achieve a 31% permanent income tax savings on the value of your partnership.
Its the best way to sell the farm, especially for smaller farms where the value of equipment and inventory is around that 1.5 million when they want out. If everything is done right, a farm like this would pay 13% (sask crop rate) and pull the rest of the cash tax free out of the corporation and then wind up the company.
As far as your question about keeping more assets out, I'm not sure what you are specifically meaning here. In general you would want to keep land outside of the company or at least the land you currently own when you incorporate. For those that are expanding, it can be more beneficial to purchase land inside to company because of the higher tax free dollars available. Equipment, buildings and inventory are the assets you want inside as they are the ones that bear the largest tax liability.
For those that have done a direct incorporation without the partnership, you generally will have transferred a lot of land to the company. Now if you wish to retire and sell the farm, you will be forced to take large dividends over many years to get the cash out.'
If your land is inside the company and you wish to keep it, you will have to buy it back out of the company and at fair value at that time. If you wish to rent it out and its inside the company, you will have to report the income personally anyway since rental income is not eligible for the low tax rate in corporations.
About 12 years ago I formed a partnership with my spouse and we incorporated it about 7 years ago. I cannot say I have any regrets. Until the last couple years I kept all my land outside of the company but now have been purchasing new land inside. At some point in time I can gift any personally owned quarters of land to one of my 3 kids whereas if its inside the company I am not able to. It just gives maximum flexilbility in my estate.
The partnership with a company was done with my brother a number of years ago. It worked really slick for him.
IP: Logged
Edit?
Saskfarmer99 posted Dec 30, 2011 20:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading your post again about the only other thing I wish to add is flexibility.
When you keep some farmland outside of the corp you now have another method of compensating yourself - Rent
It really becomes an issue of the following:
a) Do you want to pay into CPP, therfore you pay wages to yourself
b) If you don't want to pay into CPP but want to build RRSP's (to replace the CPP) then rent or rent/wages combo
c) If you want the cheapest tax overall to get income into your own hands, take dividends.
Everyone's situation is different and no two will be the same
IP: Logged
Edit?
bluefargo posted Dec 30, 2011 23:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't let this lease vrs buy argument go without one last comment.
I only lease grain bins and sheds. I lease them over 3 years with a 10% buyout. The depreciation rate is 10% on bins (5% the first year). The lease payments are fully deductable.
At a 40% marginal tax rate there is no comparison. I built a shed this year. There is no way I would have built it unless I could lease.
The tax advantages of leasing buildings are obvious to a non incorporated farmer.
There probably isn't much, if any, tax advantages to leasing class 10 machinery.
IP: Logged
Edit?
FarmRanger posted Dec 31, 2011 9:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At a 40% MTR, I had to put the interest rate up to 24% for the 3 year lease before it was equal with the 5 year 6% loan.
It's the extremely accelerated depreciation rate that you achieve by writing 90% off in 3 years that gives the lease advantage on buildings. I'm surprised that Canada Revenue Agency allows it.
IP: Logged
Edit?
bluefargo posted Dec 31, 2011 10:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger
Now we're on the same page! Absolutely it is the accelerated CCA that makes leasing so attractive. In 6 years I have written off 90% of my granary or shed. I too am surprised Rev Canada allows it. It's a real loop hole.
I have heard second hand that a court declared that if you (the leasor) and I (the leasee) say it's a lease, it is a lease. The government has no right to tell us how to run our business. Like I said it was a friend that told me this so I stand to be corrected.
IP: Logged
Edit?
bluefargo posted Dec 31, 2011 10:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of you old timers from Alberta might remember Cal Brandly. I think I have the name right. I believe it was him who used to say that any time you did something ONLY for tax reasons you probably did the wrong thing.
Just something to think about.
IP: Logged
Edit?
gustgd posted Dec 31, 2011 12:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Besides the accelerated CCA that has already been spoken about in great detail. We also find it easier on cash flow to go the leasing route.
Thanks all for the good discussion
IP: Logged
Edit?
bluefargo posted Dec 31, 2011 13:58
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got to make a correction. I was correct in one post but not in the other. I will write off 90% of my bin or shed in 3 years (not 6 as I said in one). I was thinking of my 6 semi annual payments I guess.
Try to write off 90% of your granary using 10% CCA rates in 3 years especially when you are only allowed 5% the first year! I can't help but think that the government will try to plug this loop hole some day.
IP: Logged
Edit?
FarmRanger posted Dec 31, 2011 14:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good point on the tax implications, they are important, but with that $20,000 bin example, even with the 3 year write off, that bin has to generate over $1500 per year in income/savings just to break even. More than $1500/year would be required, if the interest rate on the lease is greater than the 8.6% used in the calculation.
IP: Logged
Edit?
$short posted Dec 31, 2011 17:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bins we bought last was better to purchase.
If you use a 5 yr lease and 5 year purchase after
the lease is up. The high lease rates are the
killer.
Machinery on the other hand seems to have
better rates.
IP: Logged
Edit?
hobbyfrmr posted Jan 1, 2012 21:13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FarmRanger, is it fair to compare that $1500/year
savings against the cost of the equivalent volume
grain bags a farm would use instead of the bins? I
know that there are advantages, efficiencies to
bagging, but not all farms require this . Is this still
an accurate line of thought (apples to apples)?
IP: Logged
Edit?
mbratrud posted Jan 2, 2012 1:08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Couple things to contribute from our experience. Lease through your own bank and can get leasing rates for much cheaper. For example just did liquid storage bin for 5%. Secondly recaptured depreciation is your worst consequence down the road. A good balance of leasing and purchasing is good but you have to be careful that on Auction sale day you don't get a big tax surprise. Good discussion.
IP: Logged
Edit?
FarmRanger posted Jan 2, 2012 11:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hobbyfrmr, it's important to make all financial decisions you look at into ones that are"apples to apples". I use Net Present Value analysis, which brings all future anticipate cash flows back to what they are "worth" today.
If you look at a grain bagger, the first thing you want to do is compare the cost to owning bins. Except for the cost of the bagger and extractor, all your costs for this option are in the future. With bins, most of your costs are up-front. To properly compare the two, NPV analysis is the best way to get all those cash flows back to "apples to apples" equivalent values.
Very often there are other non-monetary preferences that ultimately affect your final decision. One is slightly more expensive, but sometimes you love/hate permanent bins, plowing snow out in your field/dealing with plastic/ shoveling bins/ expandable storage/decreased trucking, etc. The extra / reduced cost of bins versus bags is offset by other non-monetary factors. I like working the numbers out to the point that I know that the present value cost of one decision is $X more expensive than the other. That way I can decide that I am willing to pay that extra money for the one I prefer, or pat myself on the back for deducing and making the lowest cost decision.
For me, I almost have enough bins now, my bins are all close to my fields, and I have a good bin unloading system, so the financial advantages of a bagger would have to be large for me.
If you know the costs of the two options you're looking at, I can walk you through the numbers, but we should probably start a new thread in Machinery & equipment, or Farm Management.
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hobbyfrmr posted Jan 2, 2012 14:09
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FarmRanger, I do not know up to date costs, I am not interested in bins at this time. I agree, this thread went on a tangent. A repost would be helpful because this is valuable information. I will try to do it!
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