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C18 - Judge Campbell was WRONG.

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    #11
    Tom,

    "The Minister has attempted to argue that s. 47.1 does not meet the requirements of a "manner and form" provision. I dismiss this argument and find any debate on "manner and form" is not properly before the Court for determination. Section 47.1 is presumed to be constitutionally valid, and no argument challenging this presumption has been properly presented in the present Applications; to do so would require notice of a Constitutional Question which has not been given. Thus, as the judicial review Applications are framed, the sole question for determination is: did the Minister breach the process requirements of s. 47.1, and if so, what relief, if any, should be granted? The answer to this question requires a statutory interpretation analysis."

    Agreement on the constitutionality issue? Where do you get that impression? Justice Campbell clearly forbade the argument because the Feds failed to comply with the notice requirement.

    As for the breach of section 47.1 of the CWB Act, that is apparent on a reading of the actual words of the section and the application of their simple meaning.

    As Elmer Driedger famously said:
    "Today there is only one principle or approach, namely, the words of an Act are to be read in their entire context and in their grammatical and ordinary sense harmoniously with the scheme of the Act, the object of the Act, and the intention of Parliament."

    The words of the Act are clear;

    "47.1 The Minister shall not cause to be introduced in Parliament a bill that would exclude any kind, type, class or grade of wheat or barley, or wheat or barley produced in any area in Canada, from the provisions of Part IV, either in whole or in part, or generally, or for any period, or that would extend the application of Part III or Part IV or both Parts III and IV to any other grain, unless
    (a) the Minister has consulted with the board about the exclusion or extension; and
    (b) the producers of the grain have voted in favour of the exclusion or extension, the voting process having been determined by the Minister."

    The words say that a bill that would remove wheat and barley from Part IV cannot be legally "introduced in Parliament" without consultation and a vote (manner and form to be determined by the Minister). Straightforward stuff, that.

    As for your interpretation of the "scheme of the act", have you read the Hansard debates on the subject? They are generally considered to be helpful in that determination. Certainly moreso than anyone's (including mine) unsupported opinions.

    At the end of the day the only opinion that counts is that of the Court.

    Had the government chosen to repeal section 47.1 first before tabling Bill C-18 we would not be having this debate. Maybe this was a deliberate ploy to stimulate discussion? Seems to be working from that point of view. Probably the only upshot of this particular tempest in a teapot from a practical point of view.

    Comment


      #12
      Cpallet,

      From any practical real argument... "Had the government chosen to repeal section 47.1 first before tabling Bill C-18 we would not be having this debate."

      I totally disagree.

      EXACTLY the same debate would be raging if 47.1 had been removed... specifically proving the Minister was intentionally REMOVING the section to get around having to comply with it.

      As I said, the practical intent was ALWAYS to stop the Minister and CWB BOD from changing the practice of the 'single desk' without a vote... USING the C24 legislation as the body to allow marketing freedom.

      STOP.

      Politicians can add any slant on this after... what was argued in the Parliament upon debate of 1,2,and 3rd readings is irrelevant... as the courts have ruled many times in the past.

      The Consitutional arguments are exceedingly deep and wide... The COURTS have clearly and often ruled this C24 was strictly an Act of Parliament... under the 'Trade and Commerce' consitutional title... with absolutely NO charter rights that applied. We spent MILLIONS trying to get Charter rights recognised... a total failure... UNTIL NOW!

      Undoing all those Federal Court CHARTER C24 rulings (that farmers had no Charter Rights or property rights under C24) would be arrogant, deceptive, manipulation that would bring our justice system into disrepute.

      Surely even you can understand this!

      Comment


        #13
        "Politicians can add any slant on this after... what was argued in the Parliament upon debate of 1,2,and 3rd readings is irrelevant... as the courts have ruled many times in the past."

        Bullshit. Pure and simple.

        See, for example, the SCC decisions in R. v. Morgentaler, Reference re Securities Act (Canada) ("Intrinsic evidence, such as purpose clauses and the general structure of the statute, may reveal the purpose of a law. Extrinsic evidence, such as Hansard or other accounts of the legislative process, may also assist in determining a law's purpose."), BC (Workers' Comp) v. BC (Human Rights Tribunal), Knight v. Imperail Tobacco ("Imperial submits that it is improper to rely on excerpts from Hansard on an application to strike a pleading, since evidence is not admissible on such an application. However, a distinction lies between evidence that is introduced to prove a point of fact and evidence of legislative intent that is provided to assist the court in discerning the proper interpretation of a statute. The former is not relevant on an application to strike; the latter may be. Applications to strike are intended to economize judicial resources in cases where on the facts pled, the law does not support the plaintiff's claim. Courts may consider all evidence relevant to statutory interpretation, in order to achieve this purpose."), etc., etc. etc. There are over 150 cases from the SCC alone on his point.

        You're in my house now Tom. Don't try and tell me how the law works and I won't try and tell you how to grow and market wheat. We have both spent decades honing our craft. I make the presumption that you may have some idea of what you are talking about when you speak of farming (and everything that goes with it). Go to law school, get some real world experience in Court, and we may be able to have a rational discussion on the law.

        As for farming, if you want to talk strawberries, I'm your man.

        Comment


          #14
          Cpallet,

          You are a lawyer that believes what you say... no doubt. That is YOUR job.

          Which judge we get determines how well our point is accepted.

          Its a matter of theatrics, politics, faith and good will. Protagonist vs. Antagonist.

          Lawyers are just like news reporters... they have a story to tell... no doubt about that! The better they tell the story... the more likely the court will rule in their favour.

          New precedences are the flavour of the month... everyone wants their name on one. Tony Merchant is the prime example of my point! And why his 'trial by fire' system will yield some results... with the right people launching them... and the right judges.

          I love your BS comment... kind of theatrical and makes my point for me!

          Cheers!

          Comment


            #15
            Theft is theft. The Comedian gobermont
            has stolen, my assets at the wheatie
            bored. Now ifn yous don't care, well, you
            don't care, butt I doos and wants it back.
            Ritz is gonna pay fer his blunder, after
            all the conservies seem ta be very very
            stupid and can't govern even wit their
            majoritY. Theys was elect to govern, not
            dicktate ta us framers!!!

            Comment


              #16
              Burbert or Tom4, is there any actual proof and or evidence farmers owned a single thing and that it wasn't a 100% crown corp? I have no shares, no vote, no anything really. Big farmers have the same vote as 10 acre farmer.

              Any actual documents that farmers actually own anything?

              Comment


                #17
                wd9,

                The Canadian Wheat Board Act states:

                "5. The Corporation is incorporated with the object of marketing in an orderly manner, in interprovincial and export trade, grain grown in Canada.

                6. (1) The Corporation possesses the following powers:

                (d) to acquire, hold and dispose of real and personal property, but the Corporation shall not acquire or dispose of any real property without the approval of the Governor in Council;"

                I see nothing in the Act vesting ownership or 'colour of right' of any assets of the CWB to producers. Nothing.

                Tom,

                Advocacy is indeed the art of persuasion. Sadly for those of us who practice it, advocacy in Canada is not the same as advocacy in the US, and is far removed from the stuff of TV shows. Alas.

                Little or no theatrics. Lots of boring evidence mixed with law.

                As for politics, life is politics.

                John Diefenbaker used to say that the unvarnished truth is the most effective weapon in the advocate's arsenal. I agree.

                Judges are forced to read and listen to vast amounts of material. They soon learn to sort out who they can rely on to give it to them straight, and who they cannot.

                I would add that hard work and a mastery of the facts and law of your case is the second most effective
                weapon in the advocate's arsenal. When the judge asks a question he or she wants a straight answer. Right now. What they do not want to hear is that you need a moment to look it up.

                Boring stuff. Sad but true. Which helps to explain why of all the professions, the legal profession has the highest dropout rate at all stages (law school, articling, 5, 10 and 15 years out, etc.). The fact that the skills learned are transferrable helps.

                As for your view that "New precedences are the flavour of the month... everyone wants their name on one.", with respect, you couldn't be more wrong. Lawyers are by far and away the most conservative group you will ever come across. What they want is a nice set of facts that fits right into the railway tracks of some ironclad precedent, so that neither they nor the judge has to waste time in analysis, and the other side will settle the whole thing at light speed. Preferably in cash.

                Unique facts and law are very risky indeed. You might have to ask the judge to spend some time on critical analysis (always risky) and there may be no way to predict what the old darling is going to come up with. All of which means that it is likely you won't see a red nickle in fees. Very, very few lawyers care to take that risk.

                One thing about Tony that I have always admired is that he has balls of stainless steel. He'll take on anything that piques his interest for whatever reason. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. Of course, the facts and how they may or may not fit with the law doesn't seem to bother him too much. That boy loves his work, but won't get paid a cent on this one.

                Comment


                  #18
                  Tony is quite capable of making millions; but there is no way he will ever becomes a multi billionaire on this one.
                  The supposed facts of this class action don't add up, nor do they divide up nor make any sense to anyone. Just where are there 600 thousand farmers who have a claim; how can 16 billion or trillion be justified and then come up with a three thousand dollar payment to those delivering in the most recent two crop years; all assuming that anyone registered themselves with the class action suit that doesn't have a snowballs chance of going anywhere.
                  This is a cheap publicity stunt by an accident chaser and those who expect windfalls and miracles.
                  Read the Sask Law Society webpage judgments about Tony's cases and his mode of action. You'll even gain some personal insights into how you may be represented by joining with Tony .

                  Comment


                    #19
                    This is in fact the whole Comedian
                    Wheatie Bored issue. Them that have
                    used the Bored, say damn the torps, full
                    speed ahead, sue the gobermont for
                    everything they got. Then there is
                    those that have not used, butt abused
                    the bored fer years, ***** scared that
                    the suit may result in an award fer
                    there framer neighbors. Can't have
                    that, soos lets snivel about it the
                    Comedian farmer way, hence influencing
                    the outcome, er name call, Commie,Pinko,
                    Liberal, lawyers and judges, think they
                    kin run Comedia, wrong its whinning
                    framers that ruin this great nation time
                    and time again..........

                    Comment


                      #20
                      Burbert,

                      I LOVE it when you are RIGHT!

                      ..."wrong its whinning
                      framers that ruin this great nation time and time again.........."

                      How do you explain where we got to this point?

                      ..."its whinning
                      framers that ruin this great nation time and time again.........."



                      Cheers!

                      Comment

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