Organics not safer

[grassfarmer]

Parsley, demand has been growing by 50-100% a year
over the last 6 years or so both for grass-fed beef
and our pasture pork. The consumer is driving this
demand and producers are way behind supplying
their demand. Too busy as "an industry" trying to
force hormone treated beef on the Europeans.

[oneoff]

There is no doubt that the organic industry has successfully promoted itself; and is growing. Whether the claimed health benefits are in any way valid has not been proven to me. If the world is to rely on only organic food supplies then the world should/must do something about a seven billion plus population. And the pricing schedule of organic farm producers is not friendly to decreasing even current starvation rates.
I would suggest that everyone eat a varied sensible diet; and all in moderation. On average there probably is no health benefit to eating labelled organic food compared non poisoned food from any grocery store.
And remember that unless you live your whole life in a controlled environmental chamber; never eat at a restaurant, fowl supper or the neighbors, distill every drop of water etc. then you will ingest, inhale or absorb those same "poisons" you blame every illness on.
Few people will ever live to be a hundred; and organic food will have zero correlation with longevity.

[oneoff]

The most important issue with organics is not if you are able to keep up with demand, are more or less successful financially as a producer, or have successfully promoted your products.

Anecdotal testimonials and sweeping claims of health benefits and cures have always been embraced by sufferers and those concerned or afraid of the future. To have little solid proof of those claims and especially the overall benefits, shouldn't impress even the minority who are really only concerned with their own mortality.
Where are the statistics of fewer doctor/chiropracter/nutritionist visits, less work days lost, longer life, significantly less sickness, no dietary supplements required and other measures of quality of life improvements?

[farmaholic]

I would never begrudge someone for wanting to live a healthier lifestyle. The sad part is, like oneoff stated, unless you live in a bubble our environment is polluted to the point that escaping is impossible. But if someone wants to lessen their exposure in anyway they can that is their business. I don't think it is fair to just blame to primary production of the food as being the culprit, what about all the processing that is done to it. Unfortunately, if the whole world went organic, I think it would mean more hungry people. I've said the human race is the cancer of the earth!!
ps--I am not an organic producer.

[parsley]

Coleville,I agree that for a segment of organics, it
is a religion, or a left-wing ideology. Organics has
also been hijacked by the climate-change
quackeries to advance carbon taxation worldwide.
Actually, Cole, even though we dont, I'm not
totally adverse to spot spraying. Nor some
fertilizer application. And I really believe most
farmers are not adverse to looking to lessen spray
and fertilizer.
But it's important tnat ALL farmers recognize
there is a growing health problem i first noticed it
beginning with peanut allergies popping up out of
the blue.

1. Should we acknowledge there is a problem or
pretend it does not exist? There have been many
cases of cancer with my friends and family, so my
experience is anecdotal, indeed, but their funerals
are not. Doctors tell them to change their eating
habits. Hospitals have nutritionists on staff. Why?

2. Should we try and see if allergies are directly
related to the food we produce, or should we
pretend it has nothing to do with the food we
produce? Consumers think so. The alternate is to
to lose market share to replacement foods where
eaters buy rice flour instead of wheat flour. We
lose market share , don't we. Or we we end up
buying baquettes in the superstore made from
ingredients made in France, not anecdotal, but
plainly visible on the labels. We lose market
share, don't we.

We have a problem, don't we.

Now you can be angry with me, with organics, or
with conventionals, but all of us want to increase
market share. Can we agree alll of us would like
1.3B Chinese eating toast in the morning instead
of rice.
Instead, I see my next door neighbors buying rice
flour.

I think we need to look problems in the eye. And I
see a problem. Do you? Parsley

[parsley]

Silver, celiacs cannot eat organic or conventional
or divine wheat.

Organics often grow conventional seed varieties.
Organics increasingly grow ancient grains which
some celiacs can tolerate.

[parsley]

Cott, small seed companies selling seed that are
able to produce viable seed are being bought out,
with very few remaining. Unviolated seed stock
will be as valuable as a moaning lisa in the future.
Pars

[jrkfarms]

Good morning, I dont often post on threads more of a learner than a discusser, but this is interesing for me as I am a conventional grain producer and also a miller of grains, Is organics healthier in my experience purchasing milling grain NO they are not the consumer has a little bit of education on the subject most of it horror stories on conventionally grown crops. I dealwith consumers one on one all the time and they are like the climate change people they believe everything told them. As for celiacs a true celiac cannot eat any products with gluten and this does include ancient grains, there are many people who are susceptible to wheat but are not true celiacs. I blame most of this on the processing our wheat goes through for flour, I am not here to promote myself but I have many customers who use my flour and suffer no ill effects and yet cannot tolerate regular milled flour products. Yes organics has a huge market and is growing, does organics taste better fresh picked vegetables from the garden always taste better than frozen or canned, also because we live in a developed country disposable income is greater therefore organics will grow.
Grains there are no health benefits that are discernable in the finished flours. Just my experience as a farmer and processor

[hobbyfrmr]

Interesting insight. I am an organic producer and I
like it. I think of it as a t-shirt sales business
model. My neighbor owns a huge factory and
several employees. He works to source the lowest
costs of production and crank out the highest
volume of tshirts possible. He sells large volumes
of tshirts common shape, size and satisfactory
quality to supply the demand of the majority of the
population. The other t shirt producer sources
those same tshirts, puts on a clever picture, or
catchphrase, or tie dyes them. He sells them in a
kiosk at a shopping mall for more money to much
fewer people. At the end of the day both
producers try to make enough profit to provide
food, shelter and raise their loved ones safely.
Choose how you want to make your living. It's no
big deal.
My bto neighbors are very good people, we talk
when we can and although we do not share the
same production/marketing philosophy, nobody Is
out to damage each others livelihood.
Parsley has a good point, no one is obliged to
purchase organic food. It's not mandatory.
Organic farming is a philosophy/religion for some
producers others prefer the business
challenges/opportunities presented with direct
marketing, organizing logistics and accounts
receivables.
I am a fan of sarcasm, somewhere along the way
I heard a catchphrase that made me laugh. Eat
right, exercise regularly....die anyway! Must have
been on one of those kiosk tshirts.

[hedgehog]

As an organic farmer till recently, i am well qualified to comment on my experiences.
I went into it first because there was a conversion grant, and then i started to enjoy it. Not spending a 6 figure sum on fert and chem really did it for me.
i put 30% of the farm to grass and bought sheep.
Organics got me through the terrible years of 1998 to 2007 when conventional wheat wasnt worth growing.

I have quit now because
1 sick of paperwork
2 no security of tenure so long term planning needed for organics impossibe

3conventional crops now pay, with less work
4 weeds building up to unacceptable levels
5 new regs on muck spreading
6certifying body are into self perpetuation, raising the bar higher every year.
7 certifying body is allowing shiploads of kazakh "organic " wheat into the uk, undercutting me

Two friends doing organic direct sales have quit this yr because they had no quality of life

Organic farming is great if dad paid for your farm , not if you rent.

i am now semi organic, using bare min of sprays, grass rotation, and muck.
barn now much fuller after harvest.

[parsley]

During processing, what do you think you do or
not do, that makes your flour more digestible?
Do you add manufactured gluten? Do you add
preservatives?  Etc. 

This is very important feedback and dialogue
jrkfarms, and I thank you very much for your input.

Ancient grains seems to be able to be tolerated by
some celiacs. But not severe ones. Severity
grows. 

If we can get rid of the bad rap from sick
consumers, wheat sales should grow.  And that is
what we want.   Parsley. 

[jrkfarms]

Parsley, I mill with stone ground flour mills, I do not add anything to my flour or removing anything the huge slow turning mill stones flake the grain therefore it is a cool milling process and the grain does not heat as I mill my flour. A conventional mill tempers the grain and than the grain is run through breaking reduction roll where the fines are sifted out and the coarser products are run back through more rollers. This process can heat the grain to well over 140 degrees. I can get around refortifying my flours as My flour is not fine as all purpose flour it is a true whole grain flour. The large mills dont use these mills as the largest stone I use is a 36 inch and the most grain I can mill is 700 pounds per hour so not a high output. I have two mills I use a 24 and the 36 so I can mill only 1000 pounds per hour.
There are degrees of intolerance to wheat or gluten products these are not true celiacs as a true celiac cannot have any gluten.
I have also found my list of suppliers is getting smaller as more producers are leaving because of the politics and paperwork.

[bduke]

WD9 et al.... This is an interesting debate. I was thinking about food and energy while
walking this miserably windy morning.

Many circumstance change as society "progresses"... and I realize that in some instances
some progress is questionable.

I recall having to open water holes, thawing out frozen sump pumps, and carrying hay and
straw bales during blizzards.... often freezing my nose and cheeks.

My calorie intake was tremendous, I ate much larger portions with no concern of saturated
fats, carbs nor nutrient quality.

I was very thin, and very active.

If I had continued these eating habits after dispersing the herd, I would not have had the
ambition to maintain decent health.

BTW...Mountain climbers eat pure lard..... were I to ingest pure lard I would wear it!

Reminds me of an A-V discussion regarding bacon and its libido powers....

Someone posted..."if you eat that much bacon you won't be getting into your own pants!"

However our tradition of family dishes... and portions... is very hard to change.

Our society is also eating far more "fast" and "processed" foods, and that the incidence of
diabetes, food allergies and immunity problems are a coincidence would be a stretch... I
think.

Of course observations, anecdotal evidence, and hunches are not proof positive, but they
lead to focussed research which often links causes and effects.

Technology is allowing far more sensitive detections and diagnostics.

Also, in research test groups it seems a placebo effect is often in play.

My conclusion is to prepare most of our meals, wash our raw vegetables, try to find less
processed foods, and eat a variety... in moderation.

If it's a placebo effect that works ... so be it.

If it's organics that work for you.... so be it.

We are fortunate to have choices... affordable and plentiful.

Cheers... Bill

[Burbert]

Mostly nut balls involved in the
organics industry and consumption here
in Comedia. Think about it, think about
them, yer weirdo framer neighbours, that
can't affort fertilizer er spray, theys
all organics guys/girls. The shine is
now offen organics causa cost to the
granola crunching consumer. Food bills
on the rise, check the supermarket,
organic means moldy, rotten and fulla
weed seeds and worms. You eat it ifn ya
wants ta, not mes. Besides the quack'll
get the orogamy guys/girls eventually
anyways, cousin theys doomed!!

[wd9]

Pesticide free production has always intrigued me but apparently its too confusing so it can't be marketed in Canada. To me health of the land is just as important and health of the person being fed. If organics take from the land and don't replace macro or micro nutrients then land health suffers. Pioneers did this, just took from the land till majority of the carbon phos sulfur pottasium was gone - the first organic ****rs, i mean farmers.

PFP makes sense to me and i hope one day the regulators will pull their head out of their collective asses and allow it to be marketed as such.

Was at an organic brewery in BC where the workers don't shave their legs. They used cert imported organic metcalfe but were puzzled when i asked if the chicken manure used to fert that barley came from an 'evil' conventional farmer to replace the nutrients the organic farmer could not. Not a closed loop system because it is only one direction - away. Organics should cost more, they are mortgaging their future to the next generation to replace those nutrients so i hope they are saving those premiums.