Organics not safer

[hedgehog]

wd9, i forgot the main reason i started quitting in 2007, the organic police stopped me importing chicken manure to balance the wheat i sold for chicken food.
they wanted to see an actual reduction in soil p and k before they would sanction imported muck.
that was the final straw.
i agree with you on pesticide free food.

[oneoff]

This is one of the more sensible, informative and measured threads I have ever seen on agri-ville. Perhaps the extremists on both far out ends of every debate usually get noticed a lot more than the majority who are seeking real information and workable solutions.

[Tucker]

I don't believe the organic 'movement' has as much traction in the US as here and
Europe. They just don't trust the statement that organic is safer down there. I
personally know an organic dairy farmer who raises organic alfalfa to feed to his
organic dairy cows but actually feeds his neighbors hay and sells his own alfalfa as
organic. While I don't personally know any organic types who spray at night, that's the
perception down there.

Around here the only organic guys are the ones who are raping their land for a few
years before they sell out because their credit is shot at the fert and chem dealers. I
have a weedy organic producer on the other side of one of my fields. You really can't
tell me that a spindly, stunted wheat plant that has three kernels on the head is
better for me than my full, long head of wheat.

If we all went organic, the world would starve. Good on you organic types that you're
keeping your production down and mostly taking your acres out of production so that we
evil 'conventional' farmers can still make a buck.

[oneoff]

But it still goes back to the fact that year after year there is seldom any profit (net return) from the sale of farm production. What sustains the farmers are government subsidies and off farm income sources and second jobs of family members.

[hobbyfrmr]

Oneoff, sounds like Tucker's farm is doing just fine! Most conventional farms look like the are doing well. Newer machinery,high clearance sprayers, hired men running the autosteer, huge yeilds and higher prices. Win Win. Its been a while since farming has gone this well.

[farmaholic]

First of all I would like to say that not all organic farms are failures but there were very few(if any)success stories around here. Number one, you have to be a good farmer to start with. I also found alot of the guys who attempted it didn't like spending money to produce a conventional crop. I beleive there is a right way of doing it with plowdowns and alfalfa in rotation. Guys here would let their "summerfallow" get out of hand and go to seed, nothing a dead rod mounted on a cultivator wouldn't cure and it keeps the trash on top to reduce erosion. I think they have to be even more meticulous than the conventional farmer. And yes, in this area there are alot more conventional farms with shiney iron than organic farms. I am not justifying the myriad of chemical cocktails applied to crops to accomplish this but it does produce grain. Whether or not it is environmentally friendly and without adverse health effects.... I doubt it.

[hedgehog]

farmaholic, very well said.
by the way, i wasnt playing at it i had 1500 acres organic crops.
my view was there should be no paper trail which can be "altered" but every organic prodcer should take a pledge, like the AA,s do., not to spray.

[sumdumguy]

Tucker, isnt all hay organic?

[gustgd]

Great discussion. I would think that the main
premise of the article should stand. That
customers and consumers can believe whatever
they like.
Its the advertising of organics as healthier
or safer that we as "conventional farmers"
have a problem with.
When organics have their customer base smugly
telling everyone they know that organics are
healthier. That's a great marketing story!
Yet organic's who cry when someone who calls
shenanigans forget that these people are
consumers as well.
They too feel that being called stupid, for
not eating organic is insulting.

Question. I have bought a certified organic
farm/ranch, farmed by a "good" organic
farmer. I never paid an organic premium for
the land. Would you A) keep it in organic for
short period of time to keep certification.
B) seed it all to Canola and "clean" it up.
This is land that we bought as an investment.
No intention of keeping long term. It is just
outside of our wheel house of farming
efficiently. Farther away, lots of potholes
and slough's. Capital gains exemption is used
up.
Thanks

[cottonpicken]

Hate to sidetrack a thread but on what bduke said,is
it not the fact that we have so many overweight
people walking around because they are counting
calories and not carbs? Which is what our body burns
for energy.

If you start looking at carbs and how much are in
some foods you would be very surprised.

[hobbyfrmr]

gustgd, You are accurate when you describe the organic market demand. Some people want to buy organics and I am willing to grow and sell into that market. I do not cry foul, or criticize my convnetional neighbors. Everybody is trying to make a living the best they know how. As far as your new property, if the organic farmer outright sold to you, and your name is on the titles, then you do exactly what you know best. I would choose your second option. Its far away to be comfortable, but, for one year, seed the entire farm to canola, "clean" it up. harvest it, cash in. Then you have excellent options the following year. The wheat pipeline should be reorganized and if wheat prices are respectable farming neighbors will be bullish and ready to buy more land. After harvesting the canola crop, and you dont want to farm it, you can sell it to local farmers, or land investment companies. Otherwise plan A would require continued certification, and looking for an organic farmer in the area who would pay the cash rent that you expect for a return on investment. You can farm it organic yourself if you are ok with the extra paperwork and doing thorough cleanouts on your machinery. If you are not keen and willing to be an organic farmer, then dont do it, you will be disappointed and say "I should have put it all to canola." Do what you know best and you will be happy.

[wd9]

gustg, a crop you do not spray is 'healthier' than a crop you do spray. I don't think any of us can argue against that. And this is the exclusion argument craftly used by the organic industry. Conventional crops are safe enough.

Standing on a busy city street corner breathing in all manner of hydrocarbons and NOx's with loads of asbestos from the brakes filling your lungs will not be offset by eating an organic chilly dog!

[Hopperbin]

Must also add a late personal opinion.
I think our so called developed nations need a wake up call moreso to the types of processed foods we are consuming and not blame it on some one else. A person downing chips and softdrinks, no vegetables, for most of their lives eating convenience, really should have no right to blame their broblems on conventional farmers and lawn chemicals etc. I don't consider organic eaters as irresponsible as they most likely don't do the chips and pop and non veg diet. Just it seems conventional ag is taking the blame as a whole for most people's irresponsible diets.

[parsley]

Yes, wd, noone reasonable argues that a sprayed
crop and an organic crop are equally healthy.

But I do think that most eaters, including myself,
do not discount eating crops occasionally
sprayed and fertilized. it's the amount that is the
issue, and especially considering growing
sensitivies.

Initially, In the eighties, I viewed the sickies as
sort of chronic sneezers and wheezers and
whiners who bought alternative food to reduce
their misery. They weren't. Now there are millions
of them.

Isn't it the food producers responsibility to ask
what we do, if anything, at the farm gate that
could possibly cause, change, or prevent this
epidemic? Pars.

[parsley]

Multiple sclerosis is common in Saskatchewan. In
fact, we're pretty much the MS hotspot of the
world.
I know a woman who studied Saskatchewan's MS
statistics for her undergrad degree in New
England. In the 90's. The Saskatchewan govt.
sold yourf Medicare stats to the university.

What was startling to me, was that Saskatchewan
soil is woefully deficient in selenium. And so are
MS patients. Can we do something as farmers,
you ask.

Monsanto could probably profit by modifying
wheat to absorb selenium spray, with all the
"scientific" promises that would accompany the
seed and flour sales, much like the
pharmaceutical science promised women heart
health and glowing skin if they wore pricey
estrogen patches faithfully forevermore. Of
course nobody mentions that science today
except in whispers at funerals.

But maybe instead of wasting resources for quick
fixes, some check-off money could be targeted
towards selenium research in partnership with
medical research Just throwing out ideas , not
saying its a good one. But I do note farmers
seem to be throwing federal and provincial money
at the same companies who reap the profit of the
day, and have no responsibility for the mess they
leave in the wake.

I think it would be good business for farmers to be
viewed by eaters, as growing for the sake of their
eaters' health, as opposed to the farmers'
percieved singular goals of yield. Just throwing
out notions. Pars