Organics not safer

[hedgehog]

As an organic farmer till recently, i am well qualified to comment on my experiences.
I went into it first because there was a conversion grant, and then i started to enjoy it. Not spending a 6 figure sum on fert and chem really did it for me.
i put 30% of the farm to grass and bought sheep.
Organics got me through the terrible years of 1998 to 2007 when conventional wheat wasnt worth growing.

I have quit now because
1 sick of paperwork
2 no security of tenure so long term planning needed for organics impossibe

3conventional crops now pay, with less work
4 weeds building up to unacceptable levels
5 new regs on muck spreading
6certifying body are into self perpetuation, raising the bar higher every year.
7 certifying body is allowing shiploads of kazakh "organic " wheat into the uk, undercutting me

Two friends doing organic direct sales have quit this yr because they had no quality of life

Organic farming is great if dad paid for your farm , not if you rent.

i am now semi organic, using bare min of sprays, grass rotation, and muck.
barn now much fuller after harvest.

[parsley]

During processing, what do you think you do or
not do, that makes your flour more digestible?
Do you add manufactured gluten? Do you add
preservatives?  Etc. 

This is very important feedback and dialogue
jrkfarms, and I thank you very much for your input.

Ancient grains seems to be able to be tolerated by
some celiacs. But not severe ones. Severity
grows. 

If we can get rid of the bad rap from sick
consumers, wheat sales should grow.  And that is
what we want.   Parsley. 

[jrkfarms]

Parsley, I mill with stone ground flour mills, I do not add anything to my flour or removing anything the huge slow turning mill stones flake the grain therefore it is a cool milling process and the grain does not heat as I mill my flour. A conventional mill tempers the grain and than the grain is run through breaking reduction roll where the fines are sifted out and the coarser products are run back through more rollers. This process can heat the grain to well over 140 degrees. I can get around refortifying my flours as My flour is not fine as all purpose flour it is a true whole grain flour. The large mills dont use these mills as the largest stone I use is a 36 inch and the most grain I can mill is 700 pounds per hour so not a high output. I have two mills I use a 24 and the 36 so I can mill only 1000 pounds per hour.
There are degrees of intolerance to wheat or gluten products these are not true celiacs as a true celiac cannot have any gluten.
I have also found my list of suppliers is getting smaller as more producers are leaving because of the politics and paperwork.

[bduke]

WD9 et al.... This is an interesting debate. I was thinking about food and energy while
walking this miserably windy morning.

Many circumstance change as society "progresses"... and I realize that in some instances
some progress is questionable.

I recall having to open water holes, thawing out frozen sump pumps, and carrying hay and
straw bales during blizzards.... often freezing my nose and cheeks.

My calorie intake was tremendous, I ate much larger portions with no concern of saturated
fats, carbs nor nutrient quality.

I was very thin, and very active.

If I had continued these eating habits after dispersing the herd, I would not have had the
ambition to maintain decent health.

BTW...Mountain climbers eat pure lard..... were I to ingest pure lard I would wear it!

Reminds me of an A-V discussion regarding bacon and its libido powers....

Someone posted..."if you eat that much bacon you won't be getting into your own pants!"

However our tradition of family dishes... and portions... is very hard to change.

Our society is also eating far more "fast" and "processed" foods, and that the incidence of
diabetes, food allergies and immunity problems are a coincidence would be a stretch... I
think.

Of course observations, anecdotal evidence, and hunches are not proof positive, but they
lead to focussed research which often links causes and effects.

Technology is allowing far more sensitive detections and diagnostics.

Also, in research test groups it seems a placebo effect is often in play.

My conclusion is to prepare most of our meals, wash our raw vegetables, try to find less
processed foods, and eat a variety... in moderation.

If it's a placebo effect that works ... so be it.

If it's organics that work for you.... so be it.

We are fortunate to have choices... affordable and plentiful.

Cheers... Bill

[Burbert]

Mostly nut balls involved in the
organics industry and consumption here
in Comedia. Think about it, think about
them, yer weirdo framer neighbours, that
can't affort fertilizer er spray, theys
all organics guys/girls. The shine is
now offen organics causa cost to the
granola crunching consumer. Food bills
on the rise, check the supermarket,
organic means moldy, rotten and fulla
weed seeds and worms. You eat it ifn ya
wants ta, not mes. Besides the quack'll
get the orogamy guys/girls eventually
anyways, cousin theys doomed!!

[wd9]

Pesticide free production has always intrigued me but apparently its too confusing so it can't be marketed in Canada. To me health of the land is just as important and health of the person being fed. If organics take from the land and don't replace macro or micro nutrients then land health suffers. Pioneers did this, just took from the land till majority of the carbon phos sulfur pottasium was gone - the first organic ****rs, i mean farmers.

PFP makes sense to me and i hope one day the regulators will pull their head out of their collective asses and allow it to be marketed as such.

Was at an organic brewery in BC where the workers don't shave their legs. They used cert imported organic metcalfe but were puzzled when i asked if the chicken manure used to fert that barley came from an 'evil' conventional farmer to replace the nutrients the organic farmer could not. Not a closed loop system because it is only one direction - away. Organics should cost more, they are mortgaging their future to the next generation to replace those nutrients so i hope they are saving those premiums.

[hedgehog]

wd9, i forgot the main reason i started quitting in 2007, the organic police stopped me importing chicken manure to balance the wheat i sold for chicken food.
they wanted to see an actual reduction in soil p and k before they would sanction imported muck.
that was the final straw.
i agree with you on pesticide free food.

[oneoff]

This is one of the more sensible, informative and measured threads I have ever seen on agri-ville. Perhaps the extremists on both far out ends of every debate usually get noticed a lot more than the majority who are seeking real information and workable solutions.

[Tucker]

I don't believe the organic 'movement' has as much traction in the US as here and
Europe. They just don't trust the statement that organic is safer down there. I
personally know an organic dairy farmer who raises organic alfalfa to feed to his
organic dairy cows but actually feeds his neighbors hay and sells his own alfalfa as
organic. While I don't personally know any organic types who spray at night, that's the
perception down there.

Around here the only organic guys are the ones who are raping their land for a few
years before they sell out because their credit is shot at the fert and chem dealers. I
have a weedy organic producer on the other side of one of my fields. You really can't
tell me that a spindly, stunted wheat plant that has three kernels on the head is
better for me than my full, long head of wheat.

If we all went organic, the world would starve. Good on you organic types that you're
keeping your production down and mostly taking your acres out of production so that we
evil 'conventional' farmers can still make a buck.

[oneoff]

But it still goes back to the fact that year after year there is seldom any profit (net return) from the sale of farm production. What sustains the farmers are government subsidies and off farm income sources and second jobs of family members.

[hobbyfrmr]

Oneoff, sounds like Tucker's farm is doing just fine! Most conventional farms look like the are doing well. Newer machinery,high clearance sprayers, hired men running the autosteer, huge yeilds and higher prices. Win Win. Its been a while since farming has gone this well.

[farmaholic]

First of all I would like to say that not all organic farms are failures but there were very few(if any)success stories around here. Number one, you have to be a good farmer to start with. I also found alot of the guys who attempted it didn't like spending money to produce a conventional crop. I beleive there is a right way of doing it with plowdowns and alfalfa in rotation. Guys here would let their "summerfallow" get out of hand and go to seed, nothing a dead rod mounted on a cultivator wouldn't cure and it keeps the trash on top to reduce erosion. I think they have to be even more meticulous than the conventional farmer. And yes, in this area there are alot more conventional farms with shiney iron than organic farms. I am not justifying the myriad of chemical cocktails applied to crops to accomplish this but it does produce grain. Whether or not it is environmentally friendly and without adverse health effects.... I doubt it.