$300,000.00 agri- instability welfare to the rich cheques.

[bgmb]

But the gov research into organic crop production is ok. Right Parsley

[parsley]

If the government pays farmers 5% interest on
AgI, while a commercial bank is paying 1%,
where does the government get the money to
pay you? Matching dollars coming from.....uh,
the tooth fairy?

This is about direction. Which direction should ag
be heading? That is an issue each one of you
should be deciding. More government teat vs
independence. That is the issue.

It's one that is going to make the self-backpatting
free enterprise "managers" squirm and lash out.

You can't have it both ways. Agriculture will head
in one direction more than the other.

Who do you want to be.

Organic research, engineering research,
biotechnology research... You should well know
by now that I've never had a problem with
government allocated university research dollars
for any industry, as long as the information is
owned by the public funders. I do have a
problem with research that if publicly funded, is
privately patented for only the profit, while
downloading all liabilities on the unsuspecting
harmed. Pars

[parsley]

Stonepicker, you seem to think gov programs are
a no brainer for YOU. I'm questioning really how
good is it for the burdened taxpayer, how is it for
for any up-to-their ass-in-credit government, and
thus ultimately, for the overall future of farming.
Hint: think about greek and Italian and Icelandic
and portugese and Polish farmers. Uh huh. Pars.

[farmaholic]

Well said Stonepicker. It's only meant to be there when you need it. I don't understand the scorn.

[burnt]

Good points, parsley.

It is frightening to see how few people get the concept of taking personal responsibility for their business choices.

And then they have difficulty understanding the consumers derision for them for taking government money to help keep their multimillion dollar enterprises afloat?

[farmaholic]

An earlier post from another thread:

parsley posted Feb 28, 2012 20:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I decided to look at our culture, today, with fresh
eyes, because I too often knock my culture.

Our work ethic is phenomenal. In Fijji, I was
amazed at their climate, the growing season, the
lush plants and orchids and fruit,all wild, with the
locals indulging in their particular entrenched
inactivity: sitting, and standing, and lounging,
chewing, and glaze-eyed; the streets not swept,
trails into the countryside. They obviously were
content with their lifestyle.

I visit a farm in Saskatchewan and Im exhausted
from watching the work of others.

We have a culture of work and decency and
independence and freedom and innovation worth
working to preserve. Im not ready to concede to
Midsle east culture, speaking mandarin and
eating rice for breakfast. I don't see any culture
out there I'd rather become, do you?

If not, roll up your sleeves. Nothing guarantees
our future and continuance like our heads up and
our asses down approach to success Pars


Reread the short middle paragraph, hardly sounds like a bunch of bums sitting around waiting for the welfare cheque.

[rockpile]

A very interesting discussion and both sides have
merit. However, consider the following: If all
farmable land on the Prairies were operated by say
5 or 10 large farms, there would be no need of any
form of Govt support. Risk and margin would be
covered off. Apparently very few of you visited
Shaney's post on farming in the Ukraine where the
top 36 or 37 farms exceed 100,000 hectares or
over a quarter million acres each. Do you go that
route, or maintain the status quo of smaller
multiple operators preserving a historical rural
community? (could be called social engineering).
Another thing. All talk is about Govt programs. Why
can't the private sector commercially offer the same
thing? Ever hear of insurance companies? You can't
buy private crop insurance (available in the US) or
income protection (available to other industries).
You can buy private hail insurance and guess what
those companies continue to survive and profit. The
reason you can't have access to private options is
because the Govt doesn't allow it. As long as it is
actuarially sound, the private sector could provide
this function and I think it is a premature
assumption to say they couldn't. Govt likes to run
the show because then they can control your
decisions, right?

[parsley]

MP's will argue they aren't bums sitting around
either, and when they hot the chamber to vote
they convince themselves that they should top up
their pension funds too, with a higher interest rate
than the banks are actually paying

So we question them. Not because they are lazy,
but because they selfishly eye up my money and
your money, aka tax dollars, so it becomes their
moneyaka interest earnings.

Why should taxpayers shell out 5% interest to
MP's and 5% interest to Agri-invest. The people
who pay can't receive the same rate.

This was the most important part of my
message:

" Nothing guarantees our future and continuance
like our heads up and  our asses down approach
to success ". And head down and ass up.

Farmers work so hard, and they are so skilled.
That is a sure road to success. Not govt
handouts .

Will we manage using work and skill, or using
lobbying, ag welfare and favored
deals. What do you want to be?

burnt, do you see 'now' as an ag crossroads
period? Pars  

[stonepicker]

Parsely, are you blaming the greek, italian, etc.
farmers for their countries debt problems? Their
problems come from a huge government workforce,
very low retirement age(57?)no work ethic and a
sense of entitlement by most of their people, in my
opinion. Canada spends more every year on indian
affairs ( a lot more ) than they do on farming
programs. The successful countries throughout
history were the ones who could feed their people.
Farming better be important in canada, nobody is
gonna get rich off of our programs, but in a
disaster they're nice to have. Sure i would like to
see a fiscally responsible country and government, i
would be all for government making big cuts right
across the board.

[bgmb]

I think you see my points Parsley.

And I see yours.

[burnt]

pars - no, I do not.

The "crossroads" event, IMHO, was longer ago and probably not just a one-time happening. What we are seeing today is the result of the parameters that were set longer ago.

For example, debt-relief for some in the 80's, while the more responsible ones paid their way through a manageable but still painful debt load. Bankruptcy laws that are used to leverage ahead . . .

There has been a decline in values over the past 30 years that has changed the game completely. Greed is rewarded and responsibility is seen as backward.

Who really wins when one giant corp gets all the land and government help that goes with it?

[parsley]

In USA, the sugar industry is highly subsidized.
Gingrich just said a few minutes ago if he is pres.
sugar subsidy will be gone.

That's what governments can do to you. One
signature and your goodies are all gone.

Democratic govts allow richness opportunities for
all, but at the same time, requires responsibility
and self-restraint by all sectors

Are farm managers capable of living up to the
requirements?

I ask these questions because economic times
are going to strain our sector. Our soon looming
problem will be taxation and interest rates. What
we do and what we demand affects the variability
of both of them.
Probably best bgmb, if I join the Occupy
movement and dont do a stick of work for three
months so I can stare at my belly button, and
haul rocky out for lunch Pars.