Pacific Trade Alliance

[grassfarmer]

bduke, "This has resulted in larger and very modern
facilities, but has also practically eliminated the small
enterprises."
That is a false statement with regard to the dairy
sector. Depends what you call "small" I suppose. The
dairy sector is the only one in Canadian agriculture
where a family can make a good living of 1/4 section.
Plenty of 70 cow dairies make very good incomes off
this type of land base. Often the farm family is also
maintaining a second household (employee) off their
70 cow, quarter section operation. In contrast many
beef producers have 150 cows on many quarters
and need both themselves and their wives to work off
farm to support the financial hobby that is their
ranch. Posters on this forum are quick to scoff at the
"small" grain farmers that only have 10 quarters or
less.
Sure there are some bigger operators in the dairy
sector - I know of two 500 cow operations but I
would suggest that in fact there are a bigger
proportion of profitable, small scale farms in the
dairy sector than in any other.

[ASRG]

The bottom line is does the government pay the farmer for taking his property (quota)?

The argument the "original" farmer got it for nothing or next to nothing, really doesn't wash? How many of us are sitting on land worth $ millions that was bought for $160? Would you take $160 for your quarter section?
When the government starts stealing property, where does it end?

The dairy industry evolved in Canada to make sure there was a secure, safe supply. You might not like it but that was the government of the days' policy.....and don't try to blame it all on the Liberals....Brian Mulrooney was one of the staunchest defenders of supply management we'll ever see!

Personally I don't mind paying $1.87 for a liter of good safe milk or $4 for a pound of butter. I know they were produced in a good clean environment with no BST hormone!

Now I might think different if I had ten kids or something, but when a beer in the bar is $5.....how can I complain about paying $1.87 for a liter of milk?

[bduke]

Grassfarmer.... Of course the perspective of "small" is relevant.

There are empty 30 to 40 cow barns in our area...and few Harvestors
now being used for feeding beef cattle.

The quotas from these farms are consolidated into larger operations.

The farmers selling the quotas bid up the price of farmland and changed
their operations.

Absolutely counter to the original argument for SM.

ASRG... I have not been suggesting an immediate elimination of quotas,
simply it is past time to wind down these programs.

The import tariffs could easily be ratcheted down over 10 years... as was
done in many of the tariffs under NAFTA .

For example.. the 300% tariff on imported cheese could be reduced by
10% per year.

This allows for adjustment and paying off of quotas... it also ratchets
down the value of quotas.

Current non sensical tariffication is abetting an increase in quota bids.

The import duties on US autos were reduced this way... and we still have
an auto industry.

BTW I bet you can't buy four glasses of milk in a bar for $1.87.

Bill

[bduke]

Grassfarmer and ASRG... you both seem comfortable with Supply Management.

Please explain to me why the value of the license ..i.e.quota... being of greater
cost than the herd/flock and facilities to produce an SM product is acceptable
to you?

Especially when the products are normally not illegal, immoral nor unsafe.

Bill

[grassfarmer]

It's acceptable to me because it's none of my damn
business how the value of quota relates to the cost of
herds/flocks/facilities. I'm not interested in being in
the supply managed sector but accept that if I was I'd
have to pay the entry fee to get in.
It's more acceptable to me that at least one sector of
CDN agriculture is strongly profitable year after year
than that this sector is knocked down with the
encouragement of farmers from other sectors in a
race to the bottom.
To me the rat race to build 40 quarter grain farms,
500 cow beef herds, 5000 sow hog barns in an
attempt to provide a living for one family is a sign of
abject failure, not success.
A better outcome in my view is to have more people
on the land, more sustainable production, revenue
generation and profit per quarter across the country
and that cannot be achieved by building ever larger
businesses with lower margins. The rising price of
farmland everywhere, and it's departure from values
related to production potential, means this system
will fail.

[Hopperbin]

Have to agree with you on the rat race to have the big combine. Too many growers have quit because the neighbour got done with his quarter in one hour. I hate the attitude gotta be big and have the newest on warrantee machines. These new machine and biggest has worked but gotta hit one **** of a wall pretty soon.

[Hopperbin]

Have to agree with you on the rat race to have the big combine. Too many growers have quit because the neighbour got done with his quarter in one hour. I hate the attitude gotta be big and have the newest on warrantee machines. These new machine and biggest has worked but gotta hit one **** of a wall pretty soon.

[Hopperbin]

Not sure if it is just me but I have asked for a price at my local CaseIH dealer 6 times on various machinery and 3 of them without a trade. Not even a phone call back..Next time thinking to just ask for another salesman. When I talked to the JD dealer they would not let me alone.

[bduke]

Grassfarmer...It's my business because the SM sector has consistently
neutered Canada's trade position,to the point of ridicule and ostracism
by the Cairns Group.

Our Country has been deemed hypocritical in every trade round because
of our "dual" stance.

Our grains and oilseed sector had made little profit until recently.

The subsidized overproduction from EEC (Common Ag Policy) and the US
(Farm Bill) induced the dumping of their huge subsidized inventories.

Remember the Export Enhancement Program? We grain & oilseed farmers
had to be price competitive to this dumping of subsidized stocks.

The scale of farming you dislike... as do many of us.. was driven by the
low margins for 30 years, from prices discovered in subsidized
overproducing regimes.

The rising price of farmland in this area was mostly bid up by British,
Dutch,German, French and US ex-pats.

Begs the question... why were they able to be so aggressive?

Intelligence no doubt!

Now it includes Asians and large funds... but only very recently.

The ideal farm community you articulate would most likely have been a
reality if World Ag had been completely free of subsidies and
protectionism for the last 30 years.

Unfortunately... it hasn't.

BTW... interesting how the EEC and US are now the financial wrecks of the
developed World, and they have the strongest ag support.

Shameless #&*"$% now want Canada and Australia etc. to subsidize their
road to recovery.

Arrogance...entitlemnt... desperation and very short memories I guess.

Bill

[wilagro]

bduke: I repeat..."I fully support the supply management system in Canada for the commodities that are currently covered.

If we don't want our farmers to prosper just eliminate supply management and watch the USA dominate and CONTROL our market."

[grassfarmer]

bduke,

World ag isn't going to be free of subsidies any time
soon so why take a heroic stance to be free market
champions when most of the rest will cheat you at
every turn? It's largely a bluff anyway (saying supply
management is an issue) It used to be raised all the
time at Alberta Beef Producers meetings "we can't get
market access to blah blah because of supply
management" I always countered by asking them to
name one country that has indicated or promised to
start importing or increase imports of Canadian beef
if we did away with supply management - I never did
get the name of one country because it is BS - a false
story. Sure New Zealand would like to be able to sell
their dairy exports more easily to Canada but that
doesn't mean we need concede. I say we get rid of
supply managed dairy when they give us a NZ type
climate where grass grows year round.
I know "big scale" which many of us don't like has
been brought about by low commodity prices partly
caused by subsidies in other countries, largely caused
by processors and retailers moving product around
the globe to manipulate farm gate prices downwards.
The solution to this "low priced bigness" isn't to throw
the Canadian dairy sector into the same situation -
where is the logic in that?

[bduke]

Grassfarmer... the world will never be free of distorting subsidies if
grandfathering exemptions, protectionism & import subsidies to privileged
sectors, blatant greed and political indifference are blindly accepted.

Of course to unwind years of favouritism will take time.

But it will never happen without a starting point... which is long overdue.

Ironic that you should mention the beef business, as I was thinking about a
conversation from a few years ago.

The late Lynn Biggart was telling me about the discussions the Stockgrowers
and Cattlemen were having regarding accepting SM.

He said.."Bill, had we only considered our family's well being we should have
included beef in SM. But it it wasn't right to exclude new entrants, it wasn't
right to restrict access nor export growth opportunities, and it isn't right to
be so privileged in an open market society.
Economically we were wrong... morally we are right".

Regarding to the solution of "low priced bigness" .. ironically the result of
subsidized over production.. lies in the developing markets IMHO.

Scale is seldom reduced in any industry, but its growth can be slowed.

The demand in growth of incomes in developing countries should help
expand the "affordable" market for food products and commodities.

If profitability and the inherent taxation reaches levels where farmers are
wondering why they need additional risk and labour headaches, their
families and lifestyles become refocussed.

But the effects of science, subsidies and knowledge... the production and
equipment gains... will not likely be reversed.

I doubt we will see Amish type family conveyance although there are more
horses in NA now than in the thirties.

In the "Dirty Thirties" many farm autos were converted to be horse drawn.

They were referred to as "Bennett Buggies".

I expect you are very young and perhaps unaware of the Thirties.

I am a staunch supporter of free trade, and the SM sector has made
Canada's trade position a joke for over 30 years.

Bill