Pacific Trade Alliance

[grassfarmer]

The world will never be free of distorting subsidies -
period.

[bduke]

Grassfarmer... I would never say never.

Probably not in my life time, but eventually economics prevail.

Politics and popularity have caught up to Greece, Ireland, Spain,
Portugal, France, Italy... Great Britain and the US are on the wait list.

Unfortunately one lifetime is far too short.

Bill

[kato]

It might be free of trade distorting subsidies.

Maybe some day when all the countries of the world are so bankrupt they can't pay them. In which case, subsidies will be the least of our problems.

The line that we will be free of trade distorting subsidies is a fairy tale. It ain't going to happen. They will always be there.

How many FTA's do we have to sign before we learn that not everyone who signs on has any intention of giving up any of their own subsidies? Don't we ever learn? How many times has the U.S. brought in measures that effectively cancelled what they signed on to with NAFTA?

I've lost count.

[bduke]

Kato... Don't know the line to which you are referring ... but if we do not
work towards freer unfettered trade in ag we will be disparaged far more
often than is acceptable to me.

Agriculture under GATT and the WTO has been grandfathered, excused and
protected because of politics.

Most countries which have been so intrangient in all negotiating rounds
are... IMHO ... already bankrupt . Canada an exception.

Protecting Supply Management has deemed our negotiating influence
nonsensical.

It is an opportune time for Canada to come of age on the World Stage, and
shedding inconsistent, unfair policies of favouritism are paramount.

Economics are eventually the driver of decisions, and the paradigm we have
experienced is changing.

Bill

[wilagro]

bduke: How does it feel to be a "government plant" on this forum?

You would see the Canadian domestic chicken, egg and dairy industry destroyed for another sell-out FTA in order to fall in line with the world's desire to sell their production to our populace which would effectively squeeze out our own farmers. You ARE a Quisling if there ever was one. Begone with ya...we don't need the likes of ye.

[ASRG]

bduke: I understand your argument and in an "ideal world" it might make sense. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world......we live in a world of scoundrels and rascals!
Can you tell me why it is that retail milk prices in New Zealand are higher than in Canada (google it) while NZ dairy farmers get a much lower farmgate price than Canadian SM dairy farmers?
To think you are going to benifit from a trade deal for the multinational food corporations is not reality.
You are being led down the garden path.

[bduke]

Willagro... I am no "government plant" on this nor any forum.

The SM industry will not be destroyed with out tarrification.... freight costs, shelf life,
productivity,feed costs bc of distances to export, etc. are great benefits to this
industry.

The quislings... traitors... are the hypocrites who allow the grains, oilseeds, pulse,
beef and pork industries to accept their prices being discovered net of subsidized
surplus dumping and/or protectionist policies from highly supported regimes.

Regimes of which some are now pleading for Canada to subsidize their desperate
economic requirements.

How profitable was grain farming from 1980 to 2010?

Regarding being gone with me... probably a good suggestion.. as I have much
dislike debating with they who appear too shameful to sign their names.

ASRG.... you say.."we live in a world of scoundrels and rascals!"...

Agree... and they are mostly in Governments, Gov't regulated businesses,and
positions of privilege and regulated protectionism.

I appeared in front of the EEC Common Ag Policy official representatives in Brussels
some years ago, and your sentiment is extremely similar to their arguements for
government subsidies and largess.

I don't need to remind you of the situation of which most of these protectionist
countries are now facing.

Perhaps Canada's dairy products would be attractive in NZ... if we were not
eliminating our exports via SM.

I am unaware if NZ has import duties... not material to Canada until our system is
changed.

BTW... I await your reply to my question I asked earlier in this thread which is..

Please explain to me why the value of the license... i.e. quota... being of greater cost
than the herd/flock and facilities to produce an SM product is acceptable to you?

Especially when the products are not normally illegal, immoral, nor unsafe.

Bill

[ASRG]

bduke: I guess I don't know how to answer the question of how a "license/quota" that is worth more than the "other means of production" is acceptable to me?
I don't decide what "real property" is worth? I do know, from some past experience in the bar/restaurant trade, that a liquor license or a video lottery permit, is much more valuable than the actual bar/stock/etc.? When you buy the liquor license or VLT permit you sure don't expect to have it cancelled the next week!
If a "license" is real property, whether bar, or dairy farm, then if a government wants to change the rules midstream and devalue that property, then they need to compensate that bar keeper or dairy farmer for that loss?
Why would anyone take a risk on investing in a bar, or a dairy farm (or anything else), when they have no idea what the rules are? And hasn't Prime Minister Harper been assuring farmers for years and years that supply management would never be touched?
I have no problem if he now decides SM won't work! But pay the guys a fair compensation who believed what he promised?

[bduke]

ASRG... Here is a link to a National Post piece by Andrew Coyne.

He writes about Martha Hall Findlay and Supply Management.

http://tinyurl.com/7vwymyw

The quota... license to sell milk... costs about $28,000.00 per cow.

This unbelievable cost is the current capitalization of regulatory preference policed via
very, very high tariffs and strict domestic laws of selling dairy products outside SM.

You say pay market price for real property.

If franchises of Tim Hortons, MacDonalds or Mary Kay become so exorbitant, we can
start up competitive franchises... or be a Ma and Pa operation.

Supply Management has outlawed any competition.

Ergo there is no price discovery of "fair value" from which to base compensation.

Ratcheting down tariffs while sunsetting the non compete regulations seem the fairest
to me.

Bill

[ASRG]

Well you may be right? Time will tell I guess?
Have been doing a bit of research on this TPP and I'm not so sure your average Canadian is going to benifit very much....unless trickle down economics really works? Corporations are definitely going to benifit!
It will be interesting how much cheaper we can buy milk and eggs after we throw out supply management? I really doubt we will get any new dairy or poultry farmers. I suspect we will see a lot more foreign products on our shelves though?

[gustgd]

@ASRG.
As I see it the difference will be how many
Canadian products we see on forgein shelves.

[kato]

"Please explain to me why the value of the license... i.e. quota... being of greater cost than the herd/flock and facilities to produce an SM product is acceptable to you?"

Why would that mean anything? It's no different than someone having to buy a million dollars or more worth of combines, tractors, air seeders, and land in order to grow a crop. A crop that may or may not turn out, and may or may not bring a good price.

The excuse that the cost of quota keeps people out of the dairy business is pretty weak when it's stood up beside the price of a line of equipment that seems necessary to get into the grain business these days.

Signing on to every FTA on the market, especially when it's done simply on a philosophy is just signing up for a race to the bottom, IMHO.