Whats your view on organic ag in western canada?

[Braveheart]

The organic farmers in our area relied so heavily on tillage that their fencelines and ditches started to look like the dirty thirties. They had a HUGE fuel bill for tillage. Totally unsustainable system done like that.

Their yields dropped every year as more and more nutrients were mined.

With the right rotations and proper nutrient management it should work. Like any other system, done wrong or poorly it is a disaster.

What I do appreciate about the successful organic farmers is that they listen well to their customers. A good lesson for all of us.

[charliep]

When you use the term GM, what do you mean? Most people think very specifically of transgenics or the insertion of a gene from another species. Biotechnology in general can likely be used to create opportunities for organic crops just the same as conventional. The link will be the better understanding of gene functions and the ability select for and even turn on/off specific functions that can make express themselves in different characturistics traits, agronomic factors or quality expression. Could even be something as simple as a hybrid (not GM by definition) that gets a early start and has hybrid vigor that competes with weeds better.

[bobofthenorth]

The main reason that transgenic or engineered species are unlikely to be developed for low yield agriculture is that there's not enough in it for big pharma to expend the development resources. Seed sales alone don't fund genetic engineering - its the seed/chemistry sales package that makes it all work. Not saying that's right - just the way it works.

[charliep]

How Canada in general and western Canada in particular develops the model for funding plant breeding/varietal development will be one of the most interesting questions/challenges on a go forward basis. Everyone ties plant breeding to agronomics/conventional agriculture but consumer traits/looking for other alternatives to deal with everyday agronomic issues are also important. The developing world I think will be a leader here - don't have the resources to go with our expensive chemical based solutions. Not a tree hunger/organic type but a recognition that one size does not fit all farmers and the need to do a variety of things.

[sjc]

My definition of GM is the same as yours Charlie. Because people generally feel that because GM involves manipulation, it is bad and somehow organic is better then that. I dont think the average person understands that you potentially could have GM and Organic crops. Which was the point I was trying to make

The two words have been disassociated when in fact, GM could potentially really help the organic producer as much or perhaps even more the a conventional grower in the near future as you mentioned.

If anyone thinks that Monsanto is getting rich selling chemistry they are mistaken. The future of agriculture is in technology not chemistry. We will still be spraying, but what we are spraying in 10 years is not going to be the same things as it is now. Whether we apply benefical insects to control pests or a polymer to make a resistant plant non resistant it is not going to be the same. Heck i saw a robot in Germany that took pictures of every plant of corn in a seed corn field, analysed it and then went back and removed any plant which had a different genotype. This was a 100 acre field! Too many of us get caught up in the way we do things now - just think what we have changed as farmers in the past 10 years. Change is happening even quicker now. We are just starting to see the new Ag revolution in my opinion and its pretty exciting.

The big pharm companies are not investing research dollars in traditional chemistry anymore - there research dollars are going into the seed and traits and technology. Sure they better produce us technology that pays the bills but that is what they are banking on - not chemical spray guys.

That why my view on Organic Ag is the way it is - I dont think in 10 years we wil be spraying crops for weeds like we do now. I think there will be so many traits and technologies coming that we may all one day be 'Organic' producers. It is just the crop we will be producing will be Genetically Modified as well. Maybe im wrong.

[bobofthenorth]

That's a good point Charlie. Nobody should be surprised when Pharma develops solutions that involve expensive technology that they just happen to be able to provide. If society truly wants different solutions then we will have to develop different funding models because there's nothing in it for Pharma to do the heavy lifting without the potential payoff.

[grassfarmer]

I don't know if any of you folks are familiar with what
Gabe Brown is doing in North Dakota. I'm just
fascinated by the results he is getting. I've posted a
link to one article about him but there are many - just
google him.

http://www.onearth.org/blog/regenerating-
landscapes-for-a-sustainable-future

Here is an important extract from the one article that
should spike some interest:
"The living biology in our soil has increased to the
point that we no longer use synthetic fertilizer. This
soil biology provides the plants with the nutrients
they need. We do not use any fungicides or
pesticides. A healthy ecosystem thrives on its own.
Skeptics say we cannot feed the world with this return
to natural based farming and ranching on large
scales. That is simply not true. Our average corn yield
is over 20% higher than the county average and we’ve
seen strong net profits consistently for many years."

[jamesb]

I believe there is always going to be a place for oragncic production because there is always going to be a segment of the population that demands organic products. That being said I have seen so many people profess a wish for organics but will buy only if organics are priced compariably to convention production. To me this reality puts organics in a very tough posistion as organic producers must receive more per bushel than conventional producers to be profitable.
As a response to Grass Farmers post, we do have a number of very successfull organic producers that are doing inovative things. This bears watching and as a conventional producer if I can see things that can reduce costs on my farm I will be interested to adopt them. Like most farmers we are always looking over the fence to see if there is a better way.
That being said, so many farmers started organic because they couldnt afford chemicals any more and are not able to follow the recommended practices of successfull organic production, IE no N fixing cover crops, very dirty summer fallow, no plan to replace phosphorus removed, soil erosion

[bobofthenorth]

The "organic" movement has relied on media hysteria and random marketing efforts to sustain the notion that their production is worth more than conventionally produced food. The reality is that low yield production has a lower real value than conventionally produced food (think scabby fruit, low protein wheat, older animals) The only way the perception of higher value can be maintained is with sustained marketing to reinforce the misconception that high yield agriculture is somehow harmful. As the public increasingly realizes that "organic" just means "expensive" without any compensating increase in value I expect we will see less of it, not more. The consumer is very rightly demanding value and "organic" doesn't deliver any increased value for the increased price.

[grassfarmer]

I bet Monsanto and all the other input pimps just rub
their hands when they see you coming bobofthe
north.
What about Gabe Brown that produces corn yields
20% above county average without fertilizer or
chemicals?

[hedgehog]

if a consumer is willing to buy a rolls royce, at a big price, because he believes it is better than average, it is a farmers duty to supply it.
dont try and flog him a toyota because it is better value.

[checking]

Grassfarmer.

Is that new information on the Brown ranch because the last update 5/29/12 states the Gabe Brown ranch practices Holistic Management?

Quote "this has allowed us to reduce the use of commercial fertilizer by over 90% and the use of herbicides by over 75%" unquote.

I sure hope you know whether your wife is pregnant, and not just a little bit pregnant.

[grassfarmer]

There are various articles on Gabe Brown over the
years citing different quantities of fertilizer/sprays
used - one claimed he only used spray on the corn. I
don't know the guy personally so don't know what is
accurate and what is misreporting. I don't think I've
ever read he markets his produce as organic per se
and I wasn't highlighting him with that end in mind. I
was more interested in the general production system
he uses and wonder how much of that could be
reproduced in western Canada. Imagine a successful
no-till system that produces yields even to equal
those of conventional farming with a reduction of 90%
in fertilizer and 75% in chemical use. You would be
miles ahead without looking for an organic premium.
Surely that interests some conventional farmers?

[bobofthenorth]

I'm not really interested in debating what this Brown character is or isn't doing. The science is well founded and has been known for a long time. He can fix nitrogen with green manure but there's no shortcut to cation nutrition (P & K). In the short term he can mine them for maybe 10 years depending on his initial status and never see any yield impact but there's no free lunch. I couldn't tell from the article whether he was importing feed - if so he would be adding some P & K from the manure.

BTW, I don't believe in the tooth fairy or santa claus either.