Fraud and protein?

[boarderbloke]

Would it be considered, criminal fraud, if an elevator manager turned down the sensitivity of a protein testing machine?

Would it be considered, a conspiracy to commit fraud, if graders or other workers in a grain buying elevator all knew the calibration of a protein tester, or the programing of a protein tester was set to read low?

Would it be a conspiracy to commit fraud if head office managers instructed country elevator managers to lower the calibration of their protein machines, just to have a "buffer"!!!

Even if the calibration couldn't be tampered with, I know they punch in different numbers into the machine depending on the type of wheat they're sampling, what stops anyone from queuing in a wheat type that universally reads lower than your sample?

I know a few years back of guys selling their wheat on CGC grades. There were two options at that time. One option both parties accepted the grade and protein of the secure sample sent, the second option, which they used was PROTEIN ONLY GRADE, both parties agreed on the grade grain, all but the level protein. CGC didn't comment on the grade, all they did was test for protein level.

Years ago I know an elevator manager would protein test the dirty sample because he thought the weed seeds lowered the protein, then a year or two later it was on the cleaned sample after going through the kicker. It took awhile before they realized that some weed seeds and smaller wheat kernels were actually giving higher readings in the dirty sample.

How serious could a fraud charge be when talking potentially about thousands of dollars per day.

How much lower should an elevator company be able to set the calibration of a protein tester,
none lower, .2 , .3 , .4 , 1/2% lower???

Why shouldn't something like this be considered seriously by the RCMP?

[wmoebis]

There is a nine pin-port on every protein machine. A printed read out should be mandatory and available on every sample. Just like scale tickets.
Other countries have this mandatory. Also serves as a check for protein machines and human error on recording results.

Checks and Balances.

[bucket]

Oh, OH - don't start talking about transparency and accountability.

The ****ing protein machine should be at the front counter not in the back corner behind the "employees only" gate.

[hobbyfrmr]

Bucket, I agree 200%.

One protective measure I have taken to sell wheat, is, I take my uniform bin samples to an independant lab to test protein and falling number.
Now, I know what I have to offer.
It's also convenient to fax these specs to multiple buyers, even to Europe, and the USA.

Ultimately it depends on you. You grew the crop, you can accept the line companies bids, or you can actively "market" your product by selling the milling characteristics.

[gustgd]

Walter

Other countries have this mandatory. Also serves as a check for protein machines and human error on recording results.

Which countries do this? In my experience it's easier to push for regulatory changes if we can point to an export customer that is doing what is suggested.

Are you still looking at offering a grading school?

[Oliver88]

If the protein is manipulated by a grain terminal it is fraud.
Very simple.

I hope that a proven guilty party would have to serve a prison sentence but this is Canada......so likely a slap on the wrist.

[farmaholic]

Oliver88. more like a pat on the back....

[farmaholic]

That's the CONSERVATIVE'S "tough on Corporate crime's" harshest punishment....

[farmaholic]

They are not your friends. They want you to think you're "partners". Become informed and aware of grading and "their" lopsided marketing strategies/contracts. Don't forfeit the little power you have. You have two "fronts" to defend/fight at the terminal, the grading room and the marketing reps. Get informed/educated and stand up for yourself or become a doormat. Remember they will be getting paid for elevation, misgrading your grain then inhouse blending. Good luck.

[wmoebis]

I believe it was Malleefarmer that was talking about it on here once (don't quote me without search).
I believe he said that everything is hooked directly to computers. prot. testers, scales etc all went directly into computer. No reading- recording- writing and entering by hand.Too much chance for human error.

These little pieces of paper that are written on in a hurry, recording sample/prod id, moist, Dkg, prot, hand picks etc. then taken across room or to another room to be entered later, maybe by someone else that can't make out the hurried writing or pen skips etc, or accidental wrong entry should not be acceptable.

The technology is available, the truck scales, bench scales and protein machines are all capable of being wired in.

We could be leaders not followers for once. But it seems someone else has to think of it before it will change.

Case in point:
I hauled a super B of wheat Prot tester read 13% prot and 12.6 % moist. I happen to read and take a picture of reading on my cell phone. When I picked up my check at a later date it was for 12.6% prot and 13% moist. Human error?

How would I know if I didn't look and record. Nobody can look at wheat and tell prot within .4%. At that time I think it was .12 dif on about 1300 bus. $150 on one load. Still have the pic on my phone. How many times a day does that happen when there is 50-100 trucks unloaded and 100 cars loaded in one day? 4 -5 guys in grading room. people coming and going, machines running, samples from every truck, car plus in house samples all being tested. Think there is any room for human error? And no checks and balances in place for the producer. Except if you think there might be an error you can pay for third party to inspect.

We as producer have to become leaders not followers.

[farmaholic]

wmoebis. What do you think about the fact your load is probed and being graded while there is a truck dumping on the scale and is 2 or 3 more in front of you before you get on the scale? Hard to keep an eye on them. Heaven forbid you get out of your truck and go watch and slow their "process" down arguing about grade specs.

I was once commenting to the grading room staff about the marketing reps and their ability to sleep at night, there were alot of sheepish looks and navel gazing. I can only imagine......

[Braveheart]

To reply to the original thread, yes. I believe fraud is committed when machines are re calibrated to read lower protein. If you could prove it. It sounds like there was intent, which is the base of criminal laws, is it not?

Protein though, is like some kind of inexact science. Sampled protein can change, within the same sample over time. Same sample will often read different on different machines.

All producers have the right to watch dockage and protein testing done on their grain. Anyone tells you otherwise is wrong and very simply needs a kick in the nuts.