CWB DILEMMA.II

[TOM4CWB]

Thalpenny;

Some questions for you;

Is the CWB Single Desk worth sending farmers to jail?

AS Eatmorewheat quoted, “a producer who puts a crop in the ground should have an inalienable right to harvest it and sell it." Ontario Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs Tribunal.”

Does the CWB really understand that the Monopoly policy it maintains is costing “designated area” wheat and barley farmers their freedom, for the simple convenience of CWB management and their sales department?

Just so their CWB jobs are simple and they can have an excuse, not to be accountable each morning…

Ken Beswick said it well… Can you folks actually look in the mirror each morning with clear consciences…?

Is putting farmers in prison, simply to make your work easier, putting their farms and families in jeopardy through this cruel and unusual punishment, something to be proud of as a Canadians?


Is this really the way you must have us spend November 11 2002, visiting farmers in prison who are fighting to honour the fallen dead, to overcome the same discrimination and tyranny they died to prevent?

[charliep]

With the electoral process, farmers don't have to go to jail to make their point through martyrdom. Sometimes democracy compromises individual freedoms. Farmers can market to the US by making the financial commitment (through the producer direct sale process) that they are not undercutting the CWB price in that market.

Democracy is the government model we all support and fight for. It is through this democratic model that the CWB continues to exist and operate today. So the comments about tyranny etc. are therefore misplaced and innappropriate.

Tom

[charliep]

Is democracy 'gang warfare' only if things don't go your way? This is starting to get philospohical!

Tom

[Everest]

Democracy means that a sovereign people make use of institutions (like legislatures) to make laws to govern people's actions, including the actions of their government. A democracy commonly provides state protection for the individual and his property. I know of no strong democratic nations that do not do this. In fact, one of the most fundamental attributes of democracies is the respect and protection of property. Protection provided by laws and law enforcement.

How then does the CWB's methods of property acquisition, through the use of force, constitute a democratic activity? And further, how can it be that our law enforcement agencies are able to use force to aid and abet the CWB's wishes? Isn’t that actually what they are supposed to protect us from? Does our democracy need an overhaul?

[TOM4CWB]

Thalpenny,

A little story might help, cause it seems you are having a hard time understanding what respecting our neighbours rights and freedoms is all about.

And it doesn't matter if it is a motorcycle gang, or the CWB, the principals are the same.

Power of influence , through legal or illegal means, creates reactions throughout society.

If government gives illegal authority, it is tyranny of the Majority, and is just as wrong as what Stalin did while he had power in Russia.

In the CWB code of Conduct, CWB directors are required to measure there performance by the common law maxims;

1. The Common Law is based on the Golden Rule, which states;

Do unto others as you would have done unto you, And the Negative Golden Rule, which states;

Do not do unto others as you would not have others do unto you;

2. The two fundamental principals of common law:
.....Do not infringe upon the Rights, Freedoms or Property of others, and
.....Keep all contracts willingly, knowingly and intentionally.

3. These maxims in common law which include:
....That for every wrong there is a remedy,
....The end does not justify the means,
....Fundamental principals cannot be set aside to meet the demands of convenience or to prevent apparent hardship in a particular case,
....Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law,
....Two wrongs do not make a right, and
Probably the most fundamental right of all is,
....One can enlarge the rights of the people, however they cannot be taken away without their informed consent.

Thalpenny, these are the rules by which a civilised society judge, be it be the Hells Angels, or the CWB, whether the actions are gang warfare, or that they are acceptable in a free and democratic society.

Does this help?

[StrawBoss]

Okay guys lets stop bickering over who thinks he’s smarter than the next cat by digging up outdated CWB policies and interpret them like coffee shop lawyers. Also using hindsight smarts to prove that someone made a mistake or rewriting the same thing over ten times, this is crap. Lets get more positive about our marketing future.

[Kasro]

Stawboss, what do you suggest is the most positive thing we can do in our marketing future, given the realities of the situation we find ourselves in? No rhetoric or simplistic wish-lists or statments please.

[charliep]

Kasro

Not addressed to me but I will try to answer. I will likely break the rule on being simplistic.

1) Being cost competitive. Over the next 5 - 10 years, our threats are not highly subsidized/high cost regions like the EU/the US. They will be South America and Eastern Europe/Former Soviet Union.

2) Being high quality/producing product that meets consumer needs and being able to extract the premiums that will be associated with this. When I say high quality, I don't mean Mercedes type wheat necessarily. There will be needs for quality in all the classes of crops we produce (using my car example, a Chevy cavalier has need for quality - just not at Merecedes level/cost).

4) Food safety issues. The world is becoming increasingly paranoid.

3) I think value adding at home will be an important part of this process. This could be livestock, semi lina for pasta, ethanol, malt, etc.

There are others. What ever marketing system we choose has to contribute to these larger goals.

[TOM4CWB]

Strawboss;

This fall period is crutical to our future mainly because of the CWB Political prisoners, as well as the CWB district elections.

We need to get this right, we need to understand the reasons why what has happened is still going on, and how history affects our future.

I agree we need to be positive, for one I would see the CWB offering 2003 Crop minimum price wheat and barley contracting programs that have "Act of God" clauses for fall 2003 delivery... NOW

Further a committment that the CWB will cash buy and minimum price contract wheat and designated barley next fall as is needed by farmers.

We must rebuild our wheat and barley stocks, and with few cash resourses many younger farmers MUST have these tools to operate next year.

I hope you would agree that this would be a positive step towards increasing CWB marketing efficiencies...

Will the be up to this chalenge?

Will the new directors and new CWB CEO be wise enough to pick up the pace of change at the CWB?

These issues do need to be investigated and discussed, but the moral and legal base for CWB operations direct where the CWB CAN go.

Isn't it helpful to know Strawboss?

[bobn]

thalpenny,

You stated: "With the electoral process, farmers don't have to go to jail to make their point through martyrdom. "

Shouldn't all Canadian farmers be treated the same? Why should only western farmers be subjected to the heavy boot of government?

Here is an interesting tidbit I found that shows how Ontario farmers aren't
being subjected to the same laws we are.
I'll give it a title:
"No jail please, I'm from the East"

http://www.farmersforjustice.com/site.htm
Another Example of the Unfair Treatment of Western Canadians!
Bruce Webster, the Chairman of the Ontario Wheat Producers Marketing Board was on the Jim Fisher talk show on Wednesday October 2, 2002. He was asked two very important questions by a listener. The first question asked was if the Ontario Wheat Producers Marketing Board had applied to the Federal Government for the authority to issue export licenses to their producers without going through the CWB. The answer was yes they had and that he and the general manager of the OWPMB were to meet with the Federal Government in a few weeks time to discuss the matter and perhaps change the legislation that covers this issue.

The CWB has absolute authority for issuing export licenses for any wheat and barley exported from anywhere in Canada. To obtain a license at the present time the OWPMB knows that they have to apply to the Canadian Wheat Board for the export permit. The permit is freely granted but they still have to go through the process.

The second question asked was if the Ontario Wheat Producers Marketing Board had ever issued an export permit without the authorization of the CWB. Mr. Webster said yes they had issued one permit out of their Guelph Ontario office and had received little reaction. When phoned the next day, Bruce Webster expanded his explanation and said that the export permit had been drafted by their legal department and the grain had been exported without any problem through Canada Customs even though the document presented was not a regular CWB export permit. Agriculture Canada was notified but instead of ordering the grain brought back to the original destination and making arrests, detaining vehicles and bringing charges, nothing was said except that it was illegal for the Ontario Wheat Producers Marketing Board to do this and they should refrain from issuing any more permits. Could this be considered a double standard?

An organization that has been applying to the CWB for decades for export permits decides one day that it has the right to issue export permits without the authority of the CWB. This organization then goes ahead and makes their own export permit, allows a producer to transports grain across the border (with the blessing of Canada Customs), sell his grain, and come back across the border (again with the blessing of Canada Customs) and go home with the proceeds of the sale. The point to be made here is that there was no legal export permit in existence during this transaction and all parties were aware of it! Agriculture Canada then tells the OWPMB that they should not try it again.

Lets draw a parallel. Now we travel west……..The farmers involved in the border crossings in 1996 must have somehow forgot to forge an export permit to present to Canada Customs. They took anywhere from one bag to a truckload of grain across the border. Some of the grain was donated to a 4-H Club in the States. The bottom line here is that the Farmers from Western Canada were fined, their property confiscated and now some of the farmers are facing jail time for charges stemming from not having a export license.

What legal action would have occurred if Canada Customs had stopped the transportation of grain by the Ontario producer? Would he have been charged with presenting a false document and not having a legal export license? Would this have led to other charges? Should the OWPMB be charged for issuing an illegal document to the producer, knowing that what they were doing was against Canadian law? Did they receive bad legal advice? We will never know because the Federal Government only wants to prosecute farmers in Western Canada. In this issue the fairness of the government, Canada Customs and the entire justice system is sorely lacking.

Lynda Swanson
Elnora, Alberta

[parsley]

StrawBoss,

Please be patient with the licensing issue. The devil is always in the details.

Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Bobn;

Could the export license issue be a non issue because the CWB Export License was never gazetted by Parliament, and therefore never was a legally required document to begin with?

So the OWPMB did not break the law anyway?

[TOM4CWB]

Thalpenny;

You Stated;

"Farmers can market to the US by making the financial commitment (through the producer direct sale process) that they are not undercutting the CWB price in that market."

May I ask how the producer direct sale process, controls undercutting the CWB price in the US Market?

Much of the time in the past few years, high grade CWRS buybacks were subsidising producer direct sales to the US, at the same time lowering the PRO by extracting money out of the pooling accounts. Feed Barley was no different last year.

I object to the buyback system, not because I can't make money using this system, but because it robs my neighbours of their hard earned resourses...

So Thalpenny, there is much more to this issue than just how much money is left on the kitchen table at the end of the year...

I hope you realise by now that money itself never made anyone happy, and that actually earning a living is fulfilling, while stealing a neighbours hard earned lifetime earnings is not exactly something I am proud of being involved in...

Wouldn't you agree Thalpenny, that there really is much more to this issue than just how big the pile of money is at the end of the year?

[parsley]

The PDS means selling to the Board.

Parsley

[bobn]

TOM4CWB,

If the OWPMB did not break the law, why were 150 western farmers fined and put in jail? That's my whole point! We all know we weren't really breaking any laws either, but 23 million Canadians have watched this all happen without lifting a finger! I have personally been in court over this issue enough times to know that the whole issue is a scam. Not one farmer has been found guilty of anything to do with the CWB Act. In every case the crown has used the Customs Act to convict farmers. So why did they not do the same in Ontario!