Right to export or defiance of the law

[StrawBoss]

I would like some Clarification about statements that the CWB is putting farmers in jail and the farmers didn’t do anything wrong.

Is it right to assume that the Ontario farmers exported some wheat to the US market quietly without making it a big public issue?

The western farmers are making it a big political issue to prove that we don’t want the CWB controlling our grain exporting.

Is the CWB putting western farmers in jail, or in reality the reason they are being charged is because they are defying the Canadian export custom laws?

I constantly hear that the farmers are being jailed for no reason, but I would like to know the exact wording of the charges.

I don’t like the CWB monopoly but lets be fair with accusations and diplomacy may play a big part in solving our problems a little sooner.

[AdamSmith]

Let's say our brilliant Canadian lawmakers (politicians) pass a law that requires every Canadian citizen to wear a red dress every other Tuesday. An absurd law to be sure but then again we're talking about absurd laws here.
Now let say you decided that this was beyond reason and you chose to defy the law and wore a green jumpsuit on red dress Tuesdays. You were caught, charged and convicted failure to obey Canada's Red Dress Tuesday Law. The penalty for this discretion would be a $200 fine. But you refused to pay. Eventually after defying the law and the courts you ended up in jail for refusing to pay the fine.

Would you consider that going to jail for no good reason? Or a legitimate response from society to a convicted lawbreaker?

These brave farmers are going to jail because they refused to abide by the Red Dress Tuesday Law.

[TOM4CWB]

Strawboss;

This is a very good question you ask!

THE CWB itself refuses to charge anyone for breaking the CWB Act... there are fines and penalties spelled out in the CWB Act, but the government will not subject the CWB Act itself to the scrutiny of the Courts in these cases.

So what has happened, is that Customs says it is enforcing the CWB Act, and does whatever the CWB tells them to do.

There have been various ways that customs have trapped exporters, the one that we are really dealing with has been the seizure of "conveyances" which were the vehicles that transported the sack of wheat across the border.

In 1996, one person used a wheel barrow, and that wheel barrow was seized, yet later released without any charges, but it gets more twisted...

Many of the farmers appealed the seizures by Customs, and the Minister was to make a decison of whether the sezures we alowable, or not.

Since 1996, the Minister of National Revenue refuses to make this decision.

So six years later, we have not had the rightful legal process.

If the Minister had made the decision that the sezures of the vehicles were legal, then we have automatic recourse to the Federal Court of Canada, to appeal the Ministers decision.

If the Minister decided that the sezures were not appropriate, then the Customs charges have no originating breach to cause them to begin with, with regard to the vehicles.

SO as you may have guessed by now, the government has created a situation, where they say the farmers broke the law by driving off in their seized "conveyances" yet we don't know if the sezure of these "conveyances" was correct and proper, cause the government refuses to make a decision on these sezures, or to allow the decision to be appealed to the appropriate court.

The essence of this situation is that many of these farmers are in legal limbo, and going to prison at the same time.

The whole point of the demonstration against CWB licensing, and the testing of whether the CWB is legally within the law by refusing licenses, has not been tested because of the Customs diverson and stonewalling of the Justice department of Canada.

I hope this helps just a little in a general sense, to give an appreciation of why the folks going to jail feel so jilted by this whole process!

[parsley]

StrawBoss,

Your questions are the kind of questions many farmers started asking quite some time ago. Something didn't sit quite right.


I do not wish to argue with Parliament. They have created legislation that says we must have an export license when we cross the border whether we think that is absurd or not, and they have provided us with a license issuer to do the job...the CWB.

The CWB is legislated to apply the licensing requirements equally to all Applicants in all provinces. That's where it goes to hell in a handbasket. The CWB doesn't respect the rules the legislation says they must follow.

The CWB issues licenses to all those who apply, with the exception of Prairie farmers. Every time an application comes from an Alberta farmer, they deny them and say they have to sell to the Board instead. The guys going to jail couldn't get the license if they tried. THAT is the issue. Ontario is granted licenses every time they apply. Period. Quebec doesn't even have to pretend to apply and they don't need to flash an export license at the border. There is the fairness issue of it all StrawBoss, but the important issue all famers need to ask is this..On what grounds can the CWB deny us licenses? Does the Act support what they do? Can they deny licenses just because you live in a certain area? Can they arbitrarily decide that all men who have speeding fines cannot get export licenses? Isn't there a set of rules set out by Parliament that determines the reasons why they can deny licenses? Is living in a certain town, or a certain area one of the reasons? No it isn't.

This is not about fighting against needing licenses, no matter how absurd they may seem. Even if the law happened to say the licenses must be issued on red paper written in Arabic as well as English and available only on Tuesdays, the law says we do require them. Rather, this protest and hoopla is about the fact that we can never get them, no matter what we do or what the legislation has set out.

Ask why only prairie farmers are targeted and denied licenses and if the CWB Act supports this.

Parsley

PS The CWB doesnt want to charge the farmers and go to court because the judge would then ask them the question, "Why didn't you issue this border-runner an export license in the first place?

That is why the CWB downloaded the charges to Customs.

[StrawBoss]

Thalpenny

I would appreciate your comments on this topic.

[StrawBoss]

I view this as trying to use the power of martyrdom to change legislation. As I understand it, the charges were under the Customs Act, and were mainly for removing seized property. It was numerous years ago, and there are substantial changes since that time, inculding elections. So the fight they are having is one where things have changed, farmers are collectively in charge of the organization and its policies.

The two bigger issues are that the reason it is attractive to sell to the US from time to time is because there is the single desk selling and price pooling. And there is a process that ensures that the peucniary benefit that is created is captured and provides an export license.

So the view should be, why didn't the farmers seek an export license in the appropriate way? There were other farmers in the same time period who did just that, and conducted legal business.

Tom

[TOM4CWB]

Thalpenny;

I am glad you brought up seeking the export license!

I was promised one, right up until I crossed the border...

And then the CWB changed the rules after I returned from the US...

I was charged with failing to present a CWB export license, just like the folks in Quebec and Ontario who exported without a valid one should have been!

In April of 1996, I watched in COUTS at the friendly elevator, as a trucker took 2 CWB export licenses, spliced the parts he needed off each one of them, created a new one with a photocopyer, and presented the new CWB export license and proceeded across the border.

I crossed the border in Ontario with a 55lb sack of wheat, stopped and reported before doing so, and was told to take my bag and beat it, they knew nothing of CWB export licenses!

Thalpenny, why should Creston BC farmers get to cherry pick the US market since 1983, including when they were still in the "designated area"?

The excuse the CWB gave was cause they had poor elevator service...

I suggest many farmers could use this one today!!!

Why should seed growers get to cherry pick the US markets with seed wheat and barley sales today?

Isn't wheat wheat, where does the CWB Act say anything about "wheat for planting purposes" being exempt from the CWB Monopoly on exports?

And where does the CWB Act exempt wheat and barley that is sold into the US as processed feed?

[parsley]

thalpenny,

You seem to think farmers need to “change legislation”, but they don’t. They only need the CWB to apply the legislation that is already provided, in the manner it was meant to be applied, fairly and without discrimination.

The “unlawful” thing the farmers did was to not possess a CWB export license, but a no-buyback license was never available to them, anyway.

CWB Act fines are small,and “jail” threats made under the CWB Act are silly, since the CWB Act doesn’t provide for jail for exporting without a license.

The CWB itself would be interested in having the charges transferred to Customs in order to have the farmers charged under the Customs Act which certainly can threaten jail. To teach them a lesson, of course.

The Minister of the Canadian Wheat Board was in a position to arrange for the charges to be transferred from CWB charges to Custom charges and he could do this because Minister Goodale IS in charge of the Wheat Board and he is ultimately responsible for the CWB, and that is why he legislatively has the final authority to overturn any decision his Board of Directors may pass or
recommend. To send any other message is dishonest, thalpenny

The answer to your question, “why didn't the farmers seek an export license in the appropriate way?”,is very easy to answer. No-buyback export licenses are NEVER available to Prairie applicants , but no-buyback licenses are ALWAYS available to Applicants outside the Prairies. This is discrimination.

You refer to, “a process that ensures that the peucniary benefit that is created is captured and provides an export license’, but what you describe here is merely selling directly to the Board. The farmers going to jail wanted to sell directly to their buyers instead of selling directly to the Board. And there is no legislative order anywhere that says farmers MUST sell soley to the CWB. Your "process" equals selling to the Board!
Your reply doesn't seem to be up-front enough for my liking. I like straight answers.

Parsley

[StrawBoss]

Tom4CWB, Parsley, AdamSmith and Thalpenny thanks for your comments!!

I have more questions. Did any of you try to get elected as CWB directors in your respective areas?

Tom4CWB you seem to want the board to change to accommodate your marketing and risk managing ideas, in fact it seems you want the board to gamble to minimize your risks. You should be able to win a directors election hands down in your area. If ????????

Parsely—you also want to change the CWB ways---- get elected and go for making the necessary changes.

I don’t want the CWB period , unless it is just another grain handling organization in the open market system and they can make the necessary changes to stay in business.
So I definitely don’t want to be a CWB director.

AdamSmith I am not sure where you are on this one.

[parsley]

StrawBoss,

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'd love to be able to have a system for wheat and barley like we have for lentils and flax and chickpeas. But, I can't see where the Federal Government will ever give up the control via the CWB Act, or where they will ever give up complete control over wheat and barley. Maybe it's because I'm too old and getting dull that I'm being defeatist about the promise of less regulation.

You're a breathe of fresh air, StrawBoss.

Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Strawboss;

Funny you mention the CWB Directors position...

I ran in 1998, lost with 47% against Mr. Macklin...

Then I started farming in District 4 in 2000, so I could run against Mr. Ritter... And this has cost me a move to Killam, uprooting my family that has been in the Sherwood Park area since 1881...

I don't believe it would be fair to anyone for me to run in 2002 in district one again... even though my best chance at being elected would be in District 1...

So I give my life by helping others, other directors who need support, other farmers who need help dealing with the CWB PPO contracts...

I have a toll free number 1-866-866-4292 if you want to give me a call about marketing... maybe in a couple of weeks when we finish combining, or we can work things through on line...

Strawboss, if the CWB would truly follow the CWB Act, Part III, that only gives marketing authority over grain that is "offered" to them through Section 32 of the CWB Act...

Then there would not be any of this problem today...

Farmers in Vulcan Kindersley, Wowota, or Brandon all are as entitled to FREE export Licenses, just like the folks in Creston were when they no longer appreciated CWB marketing services.

Creston grain growers refused to offer their grain to the CWB, and then demanded free export licenses, while still in the "designated area".

British Columia's Government demanded free export licenses, and the CWB then gave the people their free export licenses, no questions asked.

This happened from 1983 till 1998, and then in 1998 the Feds temporarily removed Creston from the designated area... but with one CWB Board order, they can be back under CWB authority within the "designated area" today...

There is quite a history behind why I have dedicated my life to fixing this injustice... I will NEVER forget all the disgusting and unbelievable things that the feds has done to my family and myself... the CWB only being a part of the injustice that must be resolved...

If our next generation is to build their lives upon a solid foundation of respect and justice, it will cost my generation, at least as much as my fathers generation, to procure freedom for my childern

So I am simply trying to do my part, to make my province and country a better place, and to leave it in better shape when I die, than what it was like when I was born...

Hope this works for you Strawboss?

[AdamSmith]

Strawboss, I like to use analogies to illustrate my thoughts. When I read your posting I precieved from your comments that you didn't buy into the notion that these farmers were going to jail "for no good reason".

The exact details which have led up to their incarceration (sp?)in the near future are can be techically explained and justified within our laws but the point I was trying to make was that the laws that put these gentlmen in this position are a farce. And as such I used an example of an imaginary equally farcical law.

Because it is my opinion that any law that can prohibit a producer of a product that was produced in a free environment from marketing that same product in an equally free environment is Bad Law.

The CWB Act is in my opinion bad law.

These fellows are drawing attention to that fact with the hope that it will cause law to be rewritten or as parsley suggests be applied properly.

Sorry for the confusion.

[StrawBoss]

Tom4CWB thanks but no thanks for your offer to help me in marketing or CWB contracts, because I am very capable in managing my own affairs. The best teacher is one’s own mistakes.

We all have our ups and downs in marketing, and this year Mother Nature is a bigger problem than the CWB.

Don’t try to change Alberta and Canada to mush Tom, because it’s the best country in the world and nothing is or will ever be prefect so take a holiday and enjoy our good country.

Diplomacy is the Canadian way to solve problems.