Alberta budget

[bucket]

Much like in alberta. Conservatives will say they are great shape until the other party gets elected, then in one day shit hits the fan.

40 years in power And they can't accept they may have had something to do with it.

[stonepicker]

whoa dml, don't put words in my mouth. I never said canada was in great economic shape, i said we're doing not bad. We made it through the 08 financial crisis relatively un-scathed, in a tough economy world wide canada has held its own, would you rather live in greece or one of the other pig countries? Or do you just like whining about the conservatives? You remind me of one NDP mp who said nationally on tv after the conservatives won a majority " no matter what legislation the conservatives bring forth, we're going to oppose it " now is that doing what's best for canada? What's your solution? Tax the rich and strengthen the unions?

[dmlfarmer]

SP: You also said earlier "Things are pretty darn good in canada!" I am not putting words in your mouth.

What I am trying to do is counter mis information that readers tend to pick up on and forward as truths. Like your earlier posting "what's the US. debt per capita? triple that of canada?" Many readers will take your "question" as fact when in fact it is a totally false assertion.

Unfortunately, our current government has made an art of misleading the public with statements of half truths and outright falsehoods.

You paint me as an NDP. You are wrong. I have voted Conservative federally every election. I have worked on federal Conservative campaigns. However, I can no longer support a government that does not live up to promises made, that does not do due diligence before introducing legislation, That muzzles anyone that disagrees with them. That tries to mislead me with lies and deceit. And I will do my upmost to expose such misleading information no matter who is making the claim.

[stonepicker]

US. pop. 318,000,000-- 18.2 trillion dollar debt. canada pop. 35 million-- 616 billion dollar debt. both national debt, take our debt and pop. times 10 and that would give us a debt of just over 6 trillion dollars. as i said before we're doing pretty darn good and again i never said we were doing great. Am i wrong? are those numbers correct?

[dmlfarmer]

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-government-debt-per-person-countries

Data as of feb 2014.
Rank Country Debt per person
1 Japan 99,725
2. Ireland 60,356
3. US 58,604
4. Singapore 56,980
5. Belgium 47,749
6. ITALY 46,757
7. CANADA 45,454

12. GREECE 38,444
16. SPAIN 30,031
19. PORTUGAL 26,770

[LEP]

Not sure where I read it but I think US debt has gone from 12 to over 18 trillion in the last year.

[stonepicker]

NATIONAL ( federal ) DEBT.

[dmlfarmer]

so if the federal government downloads costs to provincial levels, that debt no longer counts since it is provincial government debt. Government debt is still debt no matter of the level. Taxpayers still are on the hook whether it is municipal, provincial, or federal.

[stonepicker]

Yes taxpayers are still on the hook, the numbers i posted are all based on federal debt. We got a long way to go and we need to turn the corner, but there's not many countries in the world i'd rather live. ( i would pick austraila as a second choice )

[FarmRanger]

If it wasn't for Canada's resources, we'd be in worse shape than Greece. Too many governments for too many years overspending. Our provincial government was no exception, and the 40 year rule just attracted too many people who weren't conservative at all, but knew that the best path to power was through saying you were PC. Case in point - Allison Redford.

Alberta and Norway are totally different situations, Norway hasn't supplied a larger country with 10s of billions per year for decades. Without tax breaks there would be no oilsands, as the technology to extract the oil would never have been developed without them. Hopefully the full blown socialist government we have now doesn't kill the golden goose, because that would spell disaster for Alberta and Canada.

[dmlfarmer]

FarmRanger: your right about Canada's success has been largely dependant on our natural resources.

However, your assertion that Alberta has been supporting the rest of Canada with 10's of billion per year for decades is total BS. Alberta does not pay any of the resource income the government collects to Ottawa. Nor is there any type of separate resource tax on Alberta, companies, or individuals. Equalization comes entirely out of federal general revenue which every Canadian taxpayer contributes to.

If you think I am wrong, I challenge you to look at the Alberta consolidated financial statements and show me the line where Alberta is paying anything to the federal government or other provinces. I will make it easy for you by even providing the link for the 2014 Alberta financial statements: http://finance.alberta.ca/publications/annual_repts/govt/ganrep14/goa-2013-14-annual-report-complete.pdf

As far as companies needing tax breaks to develop the technology to extract oil from bitumen, may I point out the hot water extraction method was patented back in the 1920's.

[FarmRanger]

I don't want to get in a pissing match dml, but you're wrong. Just because the provincial government isn't writing the cheque, doesn't mean that Albertans aren't paying more into the system than they get out. The amounts are easily 10-20 billion per year.

Saying that the extraction technology is the same as the 1920s is like saying the Cummins in your 3500 is the same internal combustion engine that Henry Ford invented.

[dmlfarmer]

Farm Ranger: Please show me where I am wrong in disputing your figures. Please explain how Alberta is contributing 10-20 billion a year when the total equalization payment the federal government makes was 16,669 billion last year and this was the highest ever. (steady increase from 10,907 billion in 2006)(data: http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp) And I also want to point out NL:, SK, and BC also contributed more to equalization than they received last year and previous years. As well taxpayers in every province contributed through their taxes to equalization so unless you have data to back up your claim that Alberta is contributing 10 to 20 billion a year I call BS!

[dmlfarmer]

BTW, I agree with FarmRanger that Alberta (as well as BC, SK, and NL) receives less from federal transfers that the other 6 provinces and the territories. That is the reason for equalization payments - to provide enough funds for all provinces to offer similar, basic government services. The monies transferred does not come directly from any provincial treasury or special resource tax, it comes out of federal general revenue which is funded by every taxpayer in Canada. And remember, the federal tax rate is the same for every Canadian regardless if they live in Alberta, SK, ONT, or Quebec. Therefore those living in have provinces pay the same tax rate as those living in have not provinces. And taxes paid by those living in have not provinces also contribute to equalization payments.

The problem with equalization is it is left up to the receiving province as to how it is used and there is little monitoring of it. So we get people arguing that Albertans are subsidizing day care and tuition in Quebec. But those arguing this forget that Albertans have no sales tax whereas Quebecors pay 9.9%. They ignore the fact the provincial income rate is much higher in Quebec than in Alberta. The equalization formula takes this in consideration so in fact the amount of money transferred is only enough to ensure basic government services and not for services like daycare.

My argument is entirely with the amounts FarmRanger is claiming Albertans contribute and not that people in AB, SK, NL, and BC not paying more into government than they get back.

[FarmRanger]

Here's an economic analysis of all revenue and expenditure that the federal government has had in Alberta. The study was done by the University of Alberta about 3 years ago.

https://business.ualberta.ca/Centres/~/media/business/Centres/WCER/Documents/Publications/155ElectronicApril2final.pdf

Alberta's net contributions varied between 12 and just under 21 billion per year during the 6 years from 2005 and 2010.

You're welcome Canada.