For you Saskcan....

[furrowtickler]

Just got full data from another customer: HRSW
A: 110 lbs of 37-12 at seeding
6 ltr/ac Kugler with herbicide
6 ltr Kugler at heading
52 bus /ac
B: 110 lbs of 37-12 at seeding
6 ltr/ac Kugler with herbicide
3 ltr/ac Kugler at heading
50 bus/ac
C: 220 lbs 37-12 at seeding
Check
54 bus/ac

So half the fert at seeding and close to the same yield.
Will do protein, grade, moisture and bus weight tomorrow. Bushel weight shows on wagon but not on combine. Combine's are by volume for the most part, unless weigh wagon checked or scaled and then adjusted as you know.
Bushel weights have been on average 10% higher with the foliar samples from last year and so far this year in wheat canola and peas. Pea data was from this year, as last year was a wreck as you know.

Kugler plots were 5 days earlier.

Kinda speeds up seeding and man hrs in spring. There is a real cost to that.

And no tweety it was not replicated 15 times.
Just a good ole side by side with weigh wagon and averaged out with his total ac completed in each plot on combine after it was verified with weigh wagon.
Is it earth shattering info - no , but it shows it works.
We did the weigh together and he did not tell me what abc was till after I left.
Cost difference was $3.5 / ac better for seed place all fert before protein and bus weight accounted for and the bigger one - time and efficiency at seeding.
So again not knocking big fancy expensive seeding outfits as you indicated - just that adding a good foliar may make them more efficient and still grow the same crop and cover more acres per man hr and machine hr per day. That's the real jib here. All with no real extra labor, machinery costs or crop injury after application.
Will do soil tests in Oct to see what is being pulled out and or left in each area. Last year showed zero diff in the ones we did, and a few others. That was done by Western Ag Labs and Growers Edge and followed up with info red imagery and drones where we could - still a learning process here as well.
I am sure I left alota holes - so shoot away - I will try to fill them if I can.

[Nudge]

Plot D should be 110 of 37-12 with no foliar. How do you know if the last 40 lbs was used?

[SASKFARMER3]

THis is interesting. I am in a area that has all gone with the seed and it works very fine. We are usually wet. Now in lost acres this would work great. No excess product because its lost from seeding to flag.
Their is a new nitrogen help so it doesn't break down from fall banding. Working land gives us a way to deal with WATER>
I did do plant tissue tests after flag and early flower. BORON was short on Canola that's all. All crops I had to much N.

[furrowtickler]

Good point - but that is what he did on that field. He has anouther trial to do maybe he left the foliar out in that one at reduced fert.

[tmyrfield]

agree with nudge...really need a base yield to make any sense of this, also one with no treatment.

[Oliver88]

Furrow - What is the retail price of Kugler?


SF3 - I believe you are referring to the Dow N-Serve product that goes down with your NH3. That product has been used by corn farmers in the USA for 35 years but never has taken off in Canada yet.

[furrowtickler]

Depends on type of product used and when bought .
He used KQ2075 at $2.75 / lt
Price of the foliar is no different than traditional fert - depends when you buy .
In season Was closer to $3.25 / lt
In his case he cut $30 of seed placed fert out and replaced with about the same at the higher rate and $22 at the reduced second pass.

[furrowtickler]

Just got one other result from a customer today.
They used about 40% more fert than the other customer and seen only 1 bus gain on one 4 lt shot I applied for them at early flag leaf . This was just a test on top of what their normal fert program is.
This is very close to what we seen last year around here and in other areas. The higher the initial fert used, the lower the net result of the foliar app, which is typical to any yield / fert curve . There is a limit to any fert program - this customer was already near the the top of his yield curve - ended up at 66 bus / av on their normal fert program and 67 bus / ac with the added foliar . I have to do bus weight and protein yet but it was not a net gain in that case. That was HRSW . I did not weigh as they did it on the scale at elevator so no need to dispute at all.
As was said and well known now there are no protein differences above 14.5 anyway . A bus weight advantage may help but not enough I suspect in this case .
Just showing all results as they come across my hands and verified.

[saskcanfarmer]

Is my math way off or am I missing something?

He saved $6/ac on his fert costs but gave up 4 bushels of wheat @ $~6/bu? So he lost $18 an acre to save time at seeding but losing time at spraying? Both critical times. My numbers HAVE to be wrong? Please clarify. Protein could makeup a lot of the loss but doesnt seem like it's worth the hassle?

Let's not forget that herbicide spraying is also very time sensitive. Takes awhile to suck in 600L of a different third or fourth product or a very nice efficient tender unit. I can fill my air cart from stop to go in about 20 minutes and put down ~400Lbs of product. Fill three times a day and do 360ac. So putting down half my fert I can maybe gain 1 1/2 fills a day but I can't get enough wheat or starter blend in 1 1/2 fills to do 360 acres so I have to stop again. And seeing that a big part of that 20 minutes is travel time getting out of the tractor setting up the auger etc I might as well just fill up the fertilizer to because I've already done 80% of the work to get to that point. Essentially it is saving me MAYBE 15 minutes in a seeding day of wheat! 10 acres. I'd be done 1/2 a day earlier with that drill.

Just saying.

[saskcanfarmer]

If time saving is the selling point. That's failed. If there is a belief that you can grow better crops, reduce lodging and reduce risk by too dressing why not do it with a cheaper tried and tested product like UAN?! I don't know what the amount of nutrients you get in a litre of Kuer products but I suspect for a fraction of the cost you get the same with UAN. If you believe the 7-1 use ratio of a foliar compared to a soil applied I suspect price of UAN is still way cheaper. Yes it's one more pass at ?$2/ac? And more weather dependant.

[saskcanfarmer]

Thou I must say I do appreciate the numbers. Good or bad!

[furrowtickler]

Did UAN for years - and it's not a fraction of the cost . It has to be a separate pass and can cause leaf burn . Also must have decent rain to get it into soil then into plant . Kugler on the leaf goes into the plant regardless if it rains as long as the plant is growing. Also the slow release feeds the plant over time - the UAN , if it rains is takin in all at once and more times than not resulted in lodging.
You don't make money growing straw - ask guys last year .
How has time saving failed ? Seeding is a short window and top dressing UAN can have very small windows of opertunity - I have been there done that .

[furrowtickler]

I know it was sure nice combing standing wheat last year at 4.5 mph - a lot of logged wheat around was a struggle at 2.5 to 3 with headers flat on the ground with feederchains taking a beating from rocks at tough straw. There was a huge cost to that and a lot of lost time .

[saskcanfarmer]

Wheat doesn't lodge because you put all the nutrients out at seeding time. It lodges because you have improper ratios of nutrient at seeding time.

[furrowtickler]

Ya , your right , that's all part of it . But now we are barking up the same tree . That is true at seeding and also what can be applied after