Ritz WTO position??

[Fransisco]

Tom, this is a really bizarre turn of events. You are now in the national socialist camp defending supply management and Quebec both of which are working to the detriment of western Canadians.

You ask the question, "Why should I depend on Milk from New Zealand, sugar from Cuba, or oil from Saudi Arabia for my families needs?"

Which implies that we don't need to trade with other countries. A totally ridiculous proposition especially when we live in one of the most trade dependant countries in the world.

When you talk about balance what you are talking about is the government calibrating the exact amount of rights different people or groups of people in different parts of the country should have. Exactly like the CWB does.

You are talking in favour of government legislated discrimination against certain people (consumers) to the benefit of others(certain farmers) and then have the audacity to spout off about what is evil.

[Fransisco]

And I'd like to have a look at these so called UPA facts that you have bought into. Got any links?

Here are some stats Canada numbers to back up my claim that we are a trading nation and becoming more so all the time.

In 1990 25% of Canada's total GDP came from trade. In 2005 it was 40%, some years it comes close to 50%.

That's 4 times higher than the US or Japan our two biggest trading partners.

[grassfarmer]

Franny, I guess you didn't bother to Google the pro supply management sites as well as the the anti ones? They show some rather different figures.

"In March 1991, an Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) study found that a basket of various dairy products was 11.45% cheaper in the United States compared to Canada. Since July 1996, however, surveys show that the same nutritious dairy food basket has been consistently more expensive in the U.S. than in Canada."

I guess you western farmers always trust a Quebec think tank organisation's figures before you trust Agriculture Canada's figures?

As I suspected you could not provide the name of one country that would import more beef if we throw away our successful supply managed sectors.
Your theory of increased demand driving up prices is the usual childish naivety that ignores the reality of the Canadian beef industry. A post BSE analysis of the industry shows that despite our Canadian based packers shipping boxed beef into the highest priced market the US has ever seen, the Big 3 packers profits surged a whopping 281 per cent while farm cash receipts for cattle dropped 34 per cent.
Just think, if we throw away supply management we could have ZERO successful sectors of Canadian agriculture - wouldn't that be progress?

[Fransisco]

Here is the province by province breakdown from stats can 2005, % of GDP from trade.

Northwest Territories 75%
New Brunswick 72%
Saskatchewan 69%
Manitoba 65%
Ontario 64%
Alberta 58%
Quebec 57%
PEI 56%
Nfld and Labrador 55%
Nova Scotia 49%
British Columbia 46%
Yukon 26%
Nunavut 14%
Canada 40.8%

[FarmRanger]

“I guess you western farmers always trust a Quebec think tank organisation's figures before you trust Agriculture Canada's figures”

I’m not sure what Quebec think tank you’re talking about Grassfarmer, but your quote is from the Dairy Farmers of Canada, not Agriculture Canada.

Dairy producers receive $2.5 billion annually in consumer subsidies according to Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). A subsidy that gets paid at the grocery checkout.

And you know, like mustard man, I wouldn’t mind paying EXCEPT for the fact our credibility and negotiating ability goes totally out the window when we try to get other countries to reduce tariffs and export subsidies on grains and oilseeds. So its not just about me paying more for chicken, it’s about me getting less for what I have to sell because of it.

And Tom, who are you and what have you done with Tom4CWB?

[grassfarmer]

Try again farmranger - read the quote slowly - "In March 1991, an Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) study....."
Who did the study??

Now Canadian dairy producers are to blame for low returns to grain producers?? - does that mean the CWB are off the hook??

[FarmRanger]

Who did the studies since 1996?

Dairy producers aren't responsible for our lower grain prices, but our trade policy has benefited SM5 at our expense.

[Kodiak]

FarmRanger, thanks for trying to keep this discussion on track. Our buddies do seem to have a hard time with that.

And Tom, I hope you get over your bump on the head soon. Your rationality and credibility have suffered a significant set-back. “Reality is a meld of real world application & a combination of balances...” you say. Well, the real world application Tom, is that in negotiations trade-offs are made. In these negotiations, unless I’ve missed it entirely, our Government appears to be willing to trade off the economic interests of the trade dependant sectors to maintain the privilege and legislated power and protectionism of the dairy and feather sectors.

Tom, if you want to continue to maintain the moral high ground, you also need to be consistent and rational in your arguments. You seem(ed) to be genuinely concerned about the lives of the world’s poor, especially peasant farmers. How do the arbitrary actions of government preserving the politics of power and privilege benefit the world’s poor?

You need to answer Fran’s question. Which of your neighbors are you going to pick to exit the business and leave their family farm? Which Cuban sugar cane farmer should be barred access to the Canadian consumer’s dollars? I won’t ask you whether you think those families who you vote off the farm might consider you to be evil.

It appears as though Harper, Ritz and Co. are prepared to make those decisions. At least they have made the decision that it is more important to defend the protectionist sectors than secure better opportunities for the rest of us. It makes no sense and I don’t understand the logic of it, but it appears that is what they have decided.

[Fransisco]

Well since we're comparing stats from various sources here are some more from 2006.

http://www.dairyplanet.ca/story1.html

Oh yeah, are consumers have it sooo good thanks to supply management. And those farmers over in New Zealand they're the real bad guys what with being so efficient and all.

You ever been to a farm in New Zealand Tom? I know a number of farmers from over there, great guys, hard workers, they get zero subsidies now and wouldn't go back to the old system for anything.

I would have no problem buying my dairy products from any of them but then again I'm not prejudiced against farmers in other countries who are just trying to make an honest buck by being the best in the world at what they do.

[grassfarmer]

Farm ranger I think you will find Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada have conducted a few studies since 2006 - of course that wouldn't suit your argument.

You guys kill me with your preaching about freedom to market and freedom to do this and that. Then when one of your longstanding buddies posts some thoughts that are different to your own you come along with comments like "Your rationality and credibility have suffered a significant set-back."
"if you want to continue to maintain the moral high ground, you also need to be consistent and rational in your arguments."
"You need to answer Fran’s question...." Says who ?? Chairman Kodiak?? it seems you guys paranoia about communists has led you to adopt an almost communist style dictatorship on here where free speech isn't allowed.