Ritz WTO position??

[grassfarmer]

Hey Franny, you say "..its amazing what a little digging around on the internet can get you. Here are some of questions people have about the DFC 'basket survey'. Some observers suspect the survey is only conducted in border cities with historically high prices. Others wonder whether they are surveying
comparable stores."

Wow, real powerful arguments you make there "some observers suspect..." and "questions people have..." kinda like a man in the pub told me this so it must be true.
Whilst you were trawling the internet for witty responses I don't suppose you came across anything relevant to the beef questions I asked you?? No I didn't think so...

[Kodiak]

OK. Does anyone (a couple of you have replied) think the Canadian negotiating position at the WTO is on track to accomplish the objectives agreed to at the start of this marathon? In a nutshell to refresh -- to reduce the distortions and unfairness in international trade brought about by protectionist measures from the world's trading nations, particularly the wealthiest, and to elevate the economic opportunities of developing countries.

I have said from my perspective, our Government is on the wrong track. Others? If you agree, what should be done about it?

If you don't agree, what do we need to do domestically (realistically and fairly) to re-balance our different ag sectors?

How do we move forward with a position of integrity and bring benefits to the most in the ag industry that we can?

[Fransisco]

Actually I did answer your question on beef grasshopper. Looking for a little more meat are you? Fine, chew on this.

The average tariff rate for beef around the world is 80%.

Its also one of the most subsidized in the world, coming in at a 34% of total value average in OECD countries. In the EU its 68%, Switzerland 76%.

60% of all the beef produced in Canada is exported. We are the third largest beef exporter in the world. Our beef producers receive very little in the way of subsidies and have no tariff protection.

So connect the dots, it's not hard. Even a slight reduction in the amount of protectionism around the world will result in, not only, a significant increase in the volume of beef that Canadian Cattlemen can effectively sell abroad, but also the price that they will be able to sell at.

Now getting back to Kodiak's point, how do we effectively get other countries to lower their protectionist barriers while at the same time refusing to do so ourselves? The answer is obvious, it ain't gonna happen unless supply management is on the table.

[FarmRanger]

Sorry Kodiak, I just want to respond to grass farmer one more time.

The quote you posted was from the Dairy farmers of Canada website - http://www.dairygoodness.ca/en/trade-and-industry/supply-management/supply-management-support/quality-products-at-reasonable-prices.htm

The quote is: “In March 1991, an Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC) study found that a basket of various dairy products was 11.45% cheaper in the United States compared to Canada. Since July 1996, however, SURVEYS (not AAFC studies) show that the same nutritious dairy food basket has been consistently more expensive in the U.S. than in Canada.”

It is subtle, but there is no claim that AAFC did studies since 1991. Who did the survey’s, under what protocols, commissioned by whom, for what purpose?

Grassfarmer said ”paranoia about communists has led you to adopt an almost communist style dictatorship on here where free speech isn't allowed”

Who said anyone wasn’t allowed to speak? A little friendly ribbing that asks Tom to clarify something that seems inconsistent with his previous stances isn’t exactly shutting down free speech.

[wd9]

Yes, the schizo position Canada has once again taken is an embarassment to those negotiating and will be a serious negative impact to grains and oilseed exporters. This is bad, real bad, in case anyone was actually wondering.

The power of a strong lobby in action, something the g&o and other non-SM sectors simply do not have.

[Fransisco]

Tom, with all do respect.

Your challenge is simply passing the buck. Defend your own position, if you got all this 'material' then use it.

I don't buy for a second the notion that you can have supply management and still respect property rights, the system just does not allow it.

Food will not always be political, in fact if you look at history it is one of the last types of industry to remain highly politicized. The trade liberalization trend has been moving steadily forward since World War two and it is the reason why the world has become more prosperous. Sooner or later food will be a part of it and the sooner the better for all of us.

It's not up to governments to feed the people. It's far too important a job to be left up to bumbling bureaucrats.

And as far as solving this CWB problem in a manner "acceptable" to Ontario and Quebec. Are you kidding? <b>It's not their problem!</b> It's our problem, its your problem because its your grain its my problem because its my grain, its not Ontario's grain its not Quebec's grain. Its none of their business who I sell my grain to and its none of my business who farmers in those two provinces sell theirs to.

Tom you talk about the affordability of food in Canada well its simply not true when it comes to the supply managed commodities, we pay more for those staples than pretty much everyone else in world. In a lot of cases we pay the most. How does that help the poorest people in Canada Tom? How does it help a single mother to be paying triple the world price for cheese and butter? How does it help her when she decides that it is better to serve her kids coke with dinner rather than milk so she can afford to buy some school supplies?

Tom you talked about how, "There is no "free ride"... how we choose to manage our affairs will determine the fruit we produce... are we going for "positive" out comes that encourage prosperity?"

Well the supply managed crowd have had a free ride on the backs of all Canadians for far to long, it is positive for them but it is negative for everyone,everyone else. It is a system that systematically transfers wealth from every single Canadian regardless of their circumstance into the hands of a very, very, small number of business people. It is high time they return to being productive members of society instead of the welfare bums that they have become.

That is what you need to open your eyes to.

[TOM4CWB]

Dear Fransisco,

It is hard to do tables on Agri-ville, but I will copy some info on OECD Subsidies quoted, they were for 2001 that we were provided by the George Morris Centre.

Canada; 86-88) 99-01] (Year]
WHEAT % 45) 15]
Oilseeds 25) 14]
Milk % 61) 54]
Beef & Veal: 10) 8]
Pigmeat: 5) 8]
Poultry: 18) 2]
Eggs: 22) 19]

US; 86-88) 99-01] (Year]
WHEAT % 49) 46]
Oilseeds 8) 26]
Milk % 60) 51]
Beef & Veal: 6) 4]
Pigmeat: 4) 4]
Poultry: 13) 4]
Eggs: 9) 4]

EU; 86-88) 99-01] (Year]
WHEAT % 52) 48]
Oilseeds 59) 39]
Milk % 57) 44]
Beef & Veal: 59) 84]
Pigmeat: 7) 25]
Poultry: 14) 43]
Eggs: 14) 11]

NZ; 86-88) 99-01] (Year]
WHEAT % 7) 0]
Oilseeds n.c.) n.c.]
Milk % 9) 0]
Beef & Veal: 7) 1]
Pigmeat: 5) 3]
Poultry: 57) 18]
Eggs: 45) 35]

AU; 86-88) 99-01] (Year]
WHEAT % 9) 5]
Oilseeds 5) 3]
Milk % 33) 10]
Beef & Veal: 7) 4]
Pigmeat: 3) 4]
Poultry: 4) 4]
Eggs: 18) 4]

On CDN Beef & Pork I don't believe it would to your benefit to even talk about the amount of subsidies recieved since 2003.

Quebec and Ontario Societies have made some decisions: [Quebec 2m HA Ag land Base]

a)Quebec supports non-GMO;
b) Quebec supports their farmers with supply management & want farmers to share the land with them;
c) Quebec supports self sufficiency, supply management, food sovereignty;
d) National Policy = Quebec Policy:"If you agree with what we say... then we can work together!";
e) Control the market by control of supply;
f) Quebec folks don't like pork production, Especially for Export;
g) Quebec society chooses supply (& chain) management: co-management is wanted, this doesn't hurt its Farmers... Vertical Integration is encouraged where it improves farm/processor/retail profitability;

Ontario, while not as adament, hold many simular views.

Remy Lambert of the U of Leval, and Serge Lebeau of UPA presented views to us for a day in Montreal.

Give Serge a call, I am sure he will give you all the info you can absorb... if that is what you need!

I could say so much more... but I need to get harvesting so... will have to wait!

Cheers!

[silverback]

Tell us what has been the effects of supply management on the farm community in your area Tom and others.

In ours we had a lot of small producers in those sectors and over time they have all taken the quota value and cashed it in and they are out of here. The larger farmers in the beginning naturally got more quota and right away they were able to start buying up quota and producing more and expanding.

So now what do we have? We have the colonies with the vast majority of the egg quota. We have the dairy industry consolidating into bigger and bigger farms ( and colonies ). We have broiler and turkey growers consolidating very quickly and foreign buyers coming in and buying the quota.

The effect is driving the small to average producers out of the business at a faster rate than normal.

If this is what you want to see happen in the grain sector just say it.

[SASKFARMER3]

Boys this is funny really funny, Every trip to ND we take their is one product that we always bring back to Canada and Lots.
Cheese. Cheese cheese

Costco Canada

Block Cheddar 27.00 Canadian

Walmart ND

Block cheddar 11.47 US

Craft Slices
Costco 19.00

Walmart 9.78

I pay for my hotel bill on the difference of cheese alone.
Philly Cream cheese
Canada 3.79 box
Walmart ND .87 cents

So no our Canadian system costs Canadian consumers allot of Money.

Take a little trip and do your home work before you go. You ll be mystified.

[grassfarmer]

Actually Franny you didn't answer my question on beef, and quoting the figures you just did shows that you have no understanding of the beef industry.
As I highlighted in my previous post a post BSE analysis of the industry shows that despite our Canadian based packers shipping boxed beef into the highest priced market the US has ever seen, the Big 3 packers profits surged a whopping 281 per cent while farm cash receipts for cattle dropped 34 per cent.
You have still not provided the name of one country that would import our beef if we got rid of supply management. And even if you were able to the packer cartel responsible for the debacle I've just outlined would prevent any increase in beef producers net returns. You just don't know what you are talking about on this subject - ranchers/feedlots sell live cattle, packers sell beef.

[grassfarmer]

Silverback, the effect of supply management in my area is that we have small family farms able to make a great living off 160 or 320 acre dairy farms. One friend doing this runs 70 cows on a half section, earns a good living for his family even after paying a dairyman $50k a year. Net result two families sustained on a half section with sizeable disposable income compared to their rancher/farmer neighbors. This farm builds sheds, buys new machinery and thus contributes greatly to the local community. The local colony equally sustains a lot more people per quarter than any other type of farming /ranching around here.

[TOM4CWB]

Silverback,

You must admit... the grain, beef, pork, all have simular issues around consolidation... and these are NOT supply managed industries now... pork sort of was and deregulated.

Saskfarmer,

I to was surprised how much block cheese costed at Costco... I buy mine at the local Co-op... ususally for less than $10.00.

The USD issue gets into this as well.

Fertilizer, vehicles, subsidies, lost leaders, farm equipment... there are many reasons why these differences exist... more often than not... SM5 folks are not to blame. I used to get my milk at Superstore at half price as well. Often there is a 50% difference between Safeway brand Lucerne fluid milk... and Dairyland as well!

And then ask the question... how many folks in Minnisota have gone broke and been washed out of dairy... by a US system that has been very hard on milk producers... every time I read about them.

AGAIN... I wrote earlier about the Capitalisation of Quota... I don't believe this was correct... but SM5 did it... and will suffer the consequences politically and economically for that decision.

I don't believe the CWB is doing anyone any favours by encouraging the trading our quota at a cost... EITHER.

Provincial based marketing schemes are much better than what we have with the CWB now... and COnstitutionally as Supply Management in Ag is handled... they respect this requirement.

Would either of you be disappointed if wheat were handled in your province as it is now handled by the Wheat Producers Marketing Board in Ontario?

We could just "turn a leaf" here... and work together to solve this problem with the CWB...

But I know... that simply would not be the western Canadian grain growers way... like with the crow and the CWB... we must make certain our neighbour gets as little benefit as possible!

GO back to my 7 points... add some more that you believe would help solve some of the SM5 problems. SM5 is going to change... you all know this as well. I for one would try to appreciate the opportunity to help facilitate & resolve the CWB issue!

Think "outside the box"... what could we do to win Bloc support and solve this problem!

What is the likelyhood we will be in a majority FED. government of any kind... any time soon...?

Lets get on with this issue... HELP Honourable Minister RITZ... and provide some of our own Leadership from the grains sector that actually makes his job easier...

Lets not blame Honourable Minister RITZ for something he is/was not personally responsible for in the first place!

[northfarmer]

great debate, and a good read before I head our for another day of combining..........Tom you pose an interesting point, but quite frankly my libertarian views of economics suggests that such a system that would broaden supply management to other non managed commodities would still be inefficent as the regulated beuracracy would not be able to respond fast enough to market signals, and in the end you have an unfair and effiecnt reallocation of economic resources.....I am appalled by the hypocrisy of our trade position, and not just ours but those of many of our global trading partners.....the pure political reality is that the supply managed sectors overwhelmingly endorse their market strategy because it is better for their bottom lines, they do not give a rats ass about my grain and cattle operation, or whether the consumers think they are getting a good deal, their markets are protected, and yes sk3, I have bought a lot of cheaper milk based products in the US.....US grain guys in the west beat the shit out of each other beacsue we are polarised by our basic position on markets, I would be perfectly happy with a harmoinzation of all my grain marketing to the model i use for my canola and oats, as many would, and yes grassfarmer there are problems in the beef side, a higly concentrated packing industry that overwhelms that sector with its power and influence, and a govt that did nothing to mititgate the abusive power that evolved from it as it consilidated...not any different than the contempt i have for the abuse of power that stems from things like supply mgmt and the CWB....now back to harvest, may you all be safe in these busy times...

[nine420]

What about the effect that supply management has on all it neighbours? I theorize that without it perhaps there would be even more chicken, more dairy where the markets say they should be. eg. in feed proucing areas like the prairies. Maybe then the chicken feed demand would have an effect on me. I have sold a lot of feed to my neighbour

[SASKFARMER3]

Tom Cat the block of Cheeze I am talking about is not the little one Coop sells.
Big big Block.
Compare apples to apples.