COWS

[Fransisco]

How curious grassfarmer, the benefits of lower tariffs worldwide on beef for a Canadian cattleman are obvious yet you regect that outright in defense of supply management.

Why would that be if you are not a supply mangement producer looking to protect the value of his quota?

[Fransisco]

Speaking of not knowing what they are talking about Grassfarmer said ,<blockquote>"One thing that would open export doors for Canadian beef would be if we were to produce more to a hormone free, antibiotic free protocol - at least we know the EU would be a willing importer of such beef." </blockquote>

The EU ban has been ruled illegal a number of times as it is completely without any scientific merit. Their ban is just another artificial trade barrier. Do you really think that trade can be increased by accepting irrational and completely arbitrary rules set up by every country we do business with? You're dreaming in technicolour.

[Fransisco]

And here is something from one of the Canadian Cattlemens Association monthly report.
<blockquote>
<b>Canadian Pork and Beef Processors Seeking Positive Outcome, Reduction of Tariffs at WTO Negotiations</b>

Canada’s pork and beef processors say they’re ready to compete in international markets, and they’re looking to Canada’s negotiators at the World Trade Organization (WTO) to ensure they get the opportunity. <b>Meat is one of the most protected commodities in the world with one of the highest average tariffs.</b> Canadian pork and beef processors want to see a reduction of tariffs across agricultural sectors both within Canada and abroad when countries attempt to reach a WTO agreement in Hong Kong next month.

“Market access is critical for a small plant such as ours,” says Dave Price, Chairman of Sunterra Group, a pork, lamb and beef processor. “The Canadian pork, beef, and processing sectors are competing in international markets and showing that we can succeed, but we need assurance of market access. We’re not looking for special protections, we’re simply asking for a fair market environment in which to compete so that we may grow our business and our contribution to the Canadian economy. We need Canada’s WTO negotiators to be at the table in Hong Kong negotiating hard for tariff reductions.”

Greg Whalley is President of Britco Pork and a Director of the Canadian Meat Council. The Canadian Meat Council represents Canadian federally inspected meat processors. Whalley says while exports are a small percentage of his sales, his company and others like it are dependent on the export market nonetheless. “If the major Canadian pork processors lose access to export markets they will force more of their pork into the domestic market. That means fewer sales for smaller companies like ours, and possibly a loss of domestic processing capacity for Canadian hog producers.”

Whalley adds that he is interested in growing his export business which would allow him to increase hog purchases. He is also looking to Canadian negotiators to help negotiate a WTO agreement that reduces tariffs and secures market access for Canadian products.

In 2004 Canada exported $2.6 Billion worth of pork and $1.9 Billion worth of beef and veal into international markets. Canada exported pork to over 100 countries in 2004 with the top markets being the United States and Japan, followed by Australia, South Korea, Mexico, China, Russian and Taiwan. Canadian beef and veal was exported to over 65 countries in 2004 with top markets being the United States and Mexico followed by Macau, Hong Kong and Philippines. </blockquote>

Your association seems to get it grassfarmer. Why don't you?

[TOM4CWB]

Fransisco,

I think you have missed the point Grassfarmer was making about Beef to the EU.

It does apply to Quebec for certain as well.

I did a little reading about "Libertarian" views... and perhaps have a better understanding of how and why you and others feel the way you do...


What about this?

Is the customer right... if they demand hormone free natural beef... or are GMO haters... and don't want to eat these products... would you force this food upon them? I hope not.

THis is part of choice, and societies make choices... and these folks are allowed to choose what they have chosen.

Same with Organic grains... and the choices consumers have with them!

We all make choices. Sometimes these have "Profit" implications... and we live with those limitations or benefits as well!

The decision of how government serves the people it governs... is a choice of a society. Quebec IS a distinct society within Canada... after listening and trying to understand them... They have made choices, and so have we generally as Canadians.

We chose to work with Quebec... and they chose to stay with Canada and work with us. I believe this was a good choice for both of us... but it certainly makes our minds stretch... and our tolerance pushed towards accepting our neighbour and their priorities in a broader context.

And those folks who live outside Quebec that believe in the governments role... in a EU type context... have a right to do so as well.

A clear signal was sent about the CWB. PEOPLE went to JAIL... to protest the unfair system it is. TO choose to grow a SM5 product... is very different than to grow wheat of barley.

Cows and Pigs have their own challenges and market limitations... the market discipline that is needed to earn a living on the farm... is an important part of the business side we must all accept.

Who was/IS "right"... and who was/is "wrong" is a big debate... and certainly has been my point brought to this discussion. You and Parsley believe SM5 should give up some of the sovereignty and legal rights they treasure... and an obvious objection from them arises. So by force... we will take assets away from them that were legally acquired?

I don't see this as an issue with the CWB in the same way. CWB legal authority under the Constitution was supposed to accept choice decisions of growers that chose not to use the elevators, Railways, or Ports through the normal CWB system of grading grain and entering the flow of trade and commerce by doing so. Part IV of the CWB Act is supposed to be all about tariffs and restricting the "Trade and Commerce" portion of the grain industry... not the Agricultural side of a growers "Produce" before it takes on the benefit of the Canada Grain Act grades.

Parsley;

Where we draw the line in the sand... is clearly a debate on life and death issues. My faith, upon thought and further reflection... says this:

No greater love have I... than to give up my life for my friend (or neighbour). The balance in our society... is that we take the decisions our governments have made as sovereign, including giving our lives to defend our Country.



Must go and grind out some grain now... Have a great day folks!

Now lets figure out how to make some lemonade!

God bless Canada!

[cottonpicken]

Taxes?
Would you guys support the freedom to choose if you paid them or not?
How about guns?
abortion?
j walking
drunk driving
Heh i could get use to this absolute freedom thing.
Or is it just what you righteous folks choose for everyone else.

[grassfarmer]

Fransisco,
"the benefits of lower tariffs worldwide on beef for a Canadian cattleman are obvious yet you regect that outright in defense of supply management. Why would that be if you are not a supply mangement producer looking to protect the value of his quota?"
Believe it or not some people are able to hold beliefs that involve things other than their own self interest. Not that in this case my self interest as a beef producer would actually benefit any from throwing unnecessary financial hardship in the path of my supply managed neighbours, despite the nonsense you spout.

Talk about opening export markets for beef - All you guys that think the US is the best country in the world, take a look at our post BSE experiences in the beef sector. The US are the biggest protectionist bullies in the world and they didn't use much science when making their decisions on border rules. More a case of politicians jumping to the tune of their corporate puppet masters.

As for the EU and beef - I know we could sell a lot more beef there if it were hormone and anti-biotic free. I know the countries that would import and I know some of the companies that would do it. Unlike you who as yet has not been able to identify one country that would import Canadian beef if we were to throw away supply management, because that is just not an issue.

"Do you really think that trade can be increased by accepting irrational and completely arbitrary rules set up by every country we do business with?" In the case of the EU and hormone fed beef, absolutely - the customer is always right.
If I want to export my hormone free beef to Europe why should I be any different to Parsley and organic grains? If I can produce a superior product and find a willing buyer in a free market place who are you to throw roadblocks in my way? The old argument being that I can't sell hormone free because it implies that commodity beef is somehow inferior. Thus you are playing the communist role this time - all beef producers must get the same price for their product, no one is allowed to do better than the pack. You are turning into the thing you accuse the cwb of being mate!

[parsley]

I fully agree with you on this grassfarmer:


"the customer is always right".

That is exactly why choin=ce is the key to a producer's survival.

Government will eat you alive.

Parsley

[Fransisco]

Grassfarmer, when I talk about lowering protectionism around the world, <b>that includes the United States</b> it is part of the world after all. I am fully aware of how protectionist they are and how they are one of the biggest subsidizers in the world. And I totally agree that the BSE ban was not science based, that it was by all accounts political.

I also know that a lot of Europeans don't have a problem with hormone fed beef and if the ban were lifted we could sell all sorts of beef to them. The same is true for GMO canola. It is the EU government that is making the decision to artificially prop up the prices their farmers get and then they claim its on behalf of consumers. Which is a load of bull cookies because it is not their decision to make, it is the customers decision.

And please stop making things up, I never once said anyone should be banned from selling hormone free beef. You are the one advocating that the Canadian government ban the use of hormones across the country even though it has been proven safe time and again.

Use them, don't use them, <b>I don't care</b> just leave the final decision up to the customer. Let the marketplace decide, it is a much better judge of what people want and need than any government ever could be.

[grassfarmer]

Fransisco, You seem to have got yourself tied in knots and come out on the wrong side this time!
You totally misunderstand the mood of EU consumers - they lead their Governments on desire NOT to import hormone beef and GMO products. If they removed the import bans tomorrow and the products were labeled "GMO" or "hormone treated beef" the consumer wouldn't buy it.

It's not me that is making things up, I never stated that you backed a ban on selling hormone free beef. By your support of the N American feedlot/packer stance on hormone free beef you however indicated that you feel the EU ban illegal and unscientific. It is you sir, who is trying to force things on consumers that wish to make other choices.
Have a good day, I've wasted enough time arguing about beef with someone who doesn't know very much about it.

[Fransisco]

That's a bunch of hooey grassfarmer.

You are the one giving lip service to letting the customer decide. Note to grassfarmer, EU beaureaucrats are not your customer any more than the US government or any other government is.

If you are so sure that every single individual European would thumb their nose at our beef the way it is you would have nothing to worry about now would you? But you know very well that most don't care one way or the other,just like North Americans.

I have no problem with two products fighting it out in the marketplace. But you clearly do and are being hypocritical about it.

You are ticked at the Yanks about BSE but love the EU ban when both are the result of junk science and false 'consumer' concern. If anything you should be more ticked at the EU because its been going on longer.

The truth is that their is room for both hormone and non hormone beef but you just don't want to compete and are coming up with excuses not valid reasons.

By the way it wasn't me that declared the EU ban illegal, it was the WTO, twice I believe.

You have no argument.