A farmers stand against monsanto.

[wd9]

Really grass farmer? Then explain to me
how you can replace Phosphate without
stealing it from another field (manure) or
from any form of phosphate ADDED to the
soil.

I'd love to hear the crop rotation that
does this!

[bucket]

A no till farmer actually reduces fertilizer over time with the proper rotations.

I have been using a JD disk drill for over a decade, I think I grow a reasonable crop with less fertilizer than the neighbors and their hoe drills.

Although I must admit 2010,2011 and part of 2012 it hurt because the no till ground couldn't take any more moisture.

[grassfarmer]

Clutching at straws w9. Phosphate is about the only
one you really need to add and I knew that hence I
said most elements/nutrients are available in the soil.

[wd9]

Pretty big straw!

Nitrogen. It takes 2 years to grow one
crop of canola with a legume the first
year. Certainly would help with the
price!

How about Sulfur? A 50 bushel canola
crop uses 20 pounds of Sulfur. Barley
oats and flax around 15. How do you
propose that one gets replaced?

How about Potassium? Wheat and canola
uptake 90 and with the crop off comes 20
lbs. How you gonna replace K2O?

I eagerly await your answer how these
are replaced in the soil if not from
fertilizer.

[grassfarmer]

Whats the point? - you are obviously a dyed in the
wool believer in GM crops, glyphosate and
conventional high input non-sustainable agriculture.
I'll just let you go the way of the dinosaurs on your
own.

[wd9]

And yup, that's where the organic
religion falls apart. Call names,
whatever, just avoid any intelligent
discussion.

Its a marketing plan, deceiving
consumers, not a sustainable agronomic
method.

[gustgd]

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/02/22/a-
soybean-in-the-supreme-court-bowman-v-
monsanto/

[grassfarmer]

Intelligent discussion? hardly w9. You are obviously
unwilling to even consider the possibilities of an
alternate system instead using the simplistic logic of
continuing with mono-crop agriculture growing a
crop that needs very high inputs (canola) to try and
prove that an alternate system can't work.

Like so many of the "studies" that are produced to
discredit organic agriculture where they take 2 pieces
of land that have been conventionally farmed for 30
years, switch one to organic and keep the other
conventional. That is not a fair trial over the short
term. If you compare a piece that had been organic
farmed for 30 years and one conventional farmed for
the same time then you'd have a comparison. Of
course you aren't interested in that because you want
to prove that the fertilizer and spray route is the only
one.
If you want an intelligent discussion you have to open
your eyes and your mind to the crop rotations the
likes of Gabe Brown are using - you have got to think
holistically.

[wd9]

I would gladly consider it if you
actually answered the question.

Nutrients are not replaced in an organic
system. The land is depleted of its
resources until they are gone.

Without extracting those nutrients from
another source either thru mining or
cracking from natural gas or even as in
the case of manure from other land, if
you take food off, nutrients are
depleted.

Also, why do you assume i have a mono
culture? I do not. Even if i grew 19
different crops, but did not replace the
nutrients removed by the food grown and
taken, i deplete my natural resource.

In not a single one of the Gabe Brown
articles is this addressed. Perhaps you
could point me to one that does!

[TOM4CWB]

WD9,

Pulses pick up and deposit much more N than they
use.

Deep rooted plants bring up p2o5 K2o from outside
the normal soil nutrient pool... and deposit this in
roots that are shallow to build soils. The development
of soils over the past 1000's of years... proves the eco
system can build organic matter and the nutrient pool
without actually adding the mineral itself.

I would like to see the plan... of how an organic farm is
sustainable. For a beef farmer (who raises grass fed
beef)... this is going to be far easier than for a grain
farmer.

Cheers

[grassfarmer]

Try taking a look at his website.

http://brownsranch.us/?id=1

Who said anything about taking all the crops off?
That's only what you do with the unsustainable
conventional model. Growing crops that fix nitrogen,
grazing crops on site with cattle all create and return
nutrients to the soil. These are all part of Gabe's
strategy.
I guess none are as blind as those who don't want to
see.

[wd9]

Yes, pretty website. I'm sure it helps with sales, which
is what it is all about. Certainly nothing about actually
replacing nutrients. Please point out where on the site
you are referring to that i refuse to see.

Crops do fix nitrogen. We went over that already. Crop
every second year or only grow legumes.

But that does not address the others. And only half the
answer for N.

Tom, mining is mining. Whether from 4 feet down or 6
inches.

Jump start is a great example of paying for phosphate
twice. Once to mine it with acidity, once to replace it.
Acidity only works so far too. Soil equilibrium is
complex.

If we didn't take anything off the land, then it would be
healthy. If we take energy off, we need to replace it.

http://soil.gsfc.nasa.gov/index.php?section=74 explains
how long it takes to make an inch of soil - but only if
nothing is removed.

[wd9]

So i asked Gabe the question directly here is his reply:


Brown's Ranch Brian, Great question. The answer lies in the
miracle of a properly functioning mineral cycle. This occurs
when we have a healthy ecosystem. By this I mean we have the
combination of soil biology along with root exudates from a very
diverse plant community and very diverse insect and animal
communities all working to insure a properly functioning mineral
cycle. We have shown that this mineral cycle is actually taking
organic forms of these nutrients and converting them to
inorganic (plant available) forms. Tests done on our soils by
Dr. Rick Haney, ARS Temple, Texas have proven this. Now, it is
true that when we export produce from our land we are exporting
nutrients however, there is no way for me to know how much of
these nutrients occur in the soils on our ranch.

For you see, a proper functioning mineral cycle is able to cycle
organic minerals that are for example, in the case of
phosphorus, currently "tied up" as rock phosphate. We have not
used any synthetic fertilizers on our home unit since 2008 and
yet current tests show that nutrient levels in the top 24" are
increasing despite our "exporting" grains and meat. Our soils
are alive, our management just needs to allow it to function
properly.

[ColevilleH2S]

In an organic system, unless the human
feces and urine are put back on the soil
in which the food is harvested from,
there is no cycle. Only mining and
export.

[TOM4CWB]

coleville,

Many Municipalities are doing exactly that.

Toilet to table: Human waste serves as cheap, effective
fertilizer
By Bob Shaw
bshaw@pioneerpress.com
Posted: 01/13/2013 12:01:00 AM CST
Updated: 01/22/2013 11:44:46 AM CST

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_22367291/fr
om-your-toilet-your-dining-table

East of Edmonton we applied this for years... was a
very good source of nutrients.

Cheers!