Can someone help me understand

[ColevilleH2S]

Braveheart, I completely agree, if I have
to level a criticism at the industry it
is with the lack of vision it has to the
potential of this technology. They have
gotten fat and lazy off of herbicide
tolerance traits. It is now time to move
on.

Marine quality oils from plants, fusarium
resistant corn, nitrogen fixing cereals,
Saline tolerance, are what pop into my
head.

[rkaiser]

Whoops sorry Jeff. 4 not 3.

Healthier soil now than 20 years ago colvilleH2S? Maybe a little better than when more liquid nitrogen was being used, but more worms? Guess I will have to trust you on that one.. LOL Your name either makes me think you supplement your farm income in the oilfield or you have some other kind of chemical that you would like to use to enhance the worm population in your soil.

I will not say that summerfallow, the way the boys used to do it was either destroying or enhancing life in the soil, however your claims are narrowly based on chem fallow, or continuous cropping where soil enhancing creatures are replaced with fertilizers etc. I don't know if I would advocate going back to cultivation summerfallow, but alternative crops are there for you to choose. As is grass and forage. Things that build more soil than even the desicated (sp) straw that you claim your worms are just lovin these days. Damn - if you seeded grass and had to have cows, how would you deal with your winter vacation. Unless your name has something to do with your real job and you are just trying to tell us farmers how to grow food? LOL

So the way to better discussion is to call people Marxists hey Braveheart. Your name sound like you have a little hero in you, is that the case? Are you a ONESAINT hero?

Maybe you should just try to get rid of me like one of your buddies did a few days back when he talked about my mother bending over for the wrong man.

wd has his typical reasoning - marketing. Like I said before wd - I know that I aint going to market squat to you and your marketing for Monsanto aint going to change my mind.

You don't need to market my friend, your top heavy system looks after that for you. Makes sure the price is low enough to keep you sucked in to the system.

Thought I would change my approach and agree with some of your thoughts. but obviously that aint gonna work. Your agenda are clear. Pound home "your" facts and defend your buddies at all cost. Good little army you have going there boys.

[Braveheart]

Randy, I don't want to get rid of anyone. I use
the moniker Braveheart because my
greatgrandfathers name was William Wallis ........

I don't anything about your Mama's lovers or
care.

But, having attended WTO meetings etc. And
witnessed lunatics dressed like butterflies and
turtles and demonstrating against GMOs,
McDonalds and Captialism, I am more than a
little jaded.

I also raise and sell grassfed beef, practice
holistic management on our grassland and most
of my heroes are cowboys.

As GMOs I just wish everyone would be very
careful about communication. Ag doesn't need
anymore fear pumped into to it? Or, is that the
agenda for some so the organic industry can gain
larger premiums? It's almost always about the
money. Is that your real agenda Randy?

[wd9]

"soil enhancing creatures are replaced
with fertilizers etc"

Holy crap, you should have stopped at the
3 stomachs.

[ado089]

Randy, I was not trying to get rid of
you, however I would like to see an end
of your toxic dogmatic lies. The point
I was trying to make is that anytime an
active choice is made rather than random
pairing the results is genetic
modification.

How often do you see tillage in nature?

When you have the majority of people
agreeing with a thesis its called
concensus...another key tennant of
science, but let's not let science get
in the way of a good marketing plan.

Happy fathers Day folks.

[rkaiser]

You guys like that marketing plan argument don't you. Agenda Baveheart? I guess it is about offering people choicerather then the dogmatic holy crap that guys like wd and ado like to use. And then get toxic --- probably cause they see the word on all the products they buy and use on the food products they produce --- whenever someone challenges their beliefs. Oh wait a minute it is science and everything about holistic management, organic farming and the weird stuff that educated people do to prove the problems associated with chem farming are dogmatic beliefs - right.

I think that if you look back at the marketing plan started around the lie that you need to produce more food to feed the planet, you will find that supply and demand is a big part of price and most of the reason that farming has switched from family farms that were able to profit to farms like yours, sucked in to using chem farming just to make your payments.


Wana end this saying I am ruining agriculture with a marketing plan boys, tell me about the millions spenton marketing by the boys that have sucked you in to using and defending their chemical products. Like I said before and will say again, begun with the second largest lie on the planet. You can be the saviour of mankind on this planet if you use our chemicals. LMAO

One saint - get it boys. I love how America and /or western culture has figured out that the best way to manipulate people is to put the words and the pictures and the lies right smack dab in front of peoples faces.

As for the holy crap wd, without opening up that can of worms too much -- you do know that all bugs shit don't you. I never really thought of it as holy crap until you mentioned it, but thanks for the input. You are generally very helpful with you three words of insight and myriadsof postings from your buddies at Monsanto and better yet, government scientific agencies that are run by them.

And yes Happy Fathers day to you all
Enjoying a day at the ranch with my son,who also sells people choice in the form of nutritional multi vitamin drinks. Maybe you want to take a run at his mother ado, since that toxicity in you is more than on the labels of your chem jugs.

[ianben]

Getting back to risk, I wonder if North Americans
have a different attitude to risk than Europeans

Did you need to be a risk taker to up sticks and
move to the land of the free?

Would love to know what your relations thought
the risk was back then.

Was it a no brainer as life was so bad back here
and anyone who got the chance left.
or
Was it a massive risk and only the really brave
risk takers dared head for the new world leaving
Europe to the risk averse.

[oneoff]

"Thought I would change my approach and agree with some of your thoughts. but obviously that aint gonna work"

Are you saying that agreeing with certain arguments is totally conditional on anything other than the merits of the argument; and the facts themselves.

Because that comes through loud and clear that you can not bring yourself to continue to entertain thoughts that you previously said you could be in some argreement with.
God I detest hypocrites.
And earthworms just love no till; and NH3 appears to have little effect on longer term earthworm populations. And no-till (in soils I am familiar with)compared to conventional summerfallowing; well there is no comparison. We're all mining the soil to some extent; and exporting and transferring nutrient resources in the plant and animal matter that is sold or exported. Your systems are arguably not better or maybe worse than others.

You peddle deceit as truths; and deny deny deny whenever contrary evidence is introduced. It is always a case of every rebuttal defaulting to a defence of absolute unsubstantiated suspicion of singular causes.

In your point of view Honesty appears only inside your opinions and firmly held personal beliefs. Anyone who disagrees is pigeonholed as a pawn of a corporation(s) your would always vilify; no matter what their positive contributions.

And Roundup GMO feeds are just as nutritious to animals (as one of your last quoted "research reports" said in certain terms.)
And why are nearly half of animals in your "quoted research reports" diagnosed as showing signs of disease and poor health in relatively young livestock. And that applies (as you report) to both "organic " fed (or GMO for that matter). Something is wrong...you are missing things that make no sense.
And please get off other farmers being consumed with the almighty dollar and voluntarily supporting chemical companies; or manufacturers or the markets. Those decisions are largely directed by policy far outside individual control.
I suspect that your supporters might just as easily be the ultimate definition of comparison of self interest and pursuit of the almighty dollar.

You might as well embrace part of modern technology; and consider letting go of some of your ideas that just can't pass the test of repeatability; and that solely rely on your admitted total lack of understanding of opinions and beliefs that you couldn't rationally try to prove with reasoned arguments and data.

[wd9]

Exactly oneoff!

[ColevilleH2S]

Ian I often wonder what my ancestors were thinking when they decided to come here. For some it would have been an easy decision, their choice was stay at home and deal with the Bolshevik hordes, or flee. I would have fled too.

But other ancestors had good jobs and young families to look after. Why they would leave modern (for the time) big city Europe and come to a sod shack on the bald prairie, is beyond me. I often wonder what my great grandmother thought of leaving running water and electricity and coming out here.

As for risk taking, yes I think North Americans are less risk adverse than Europeans. As for why, I'm not sure, maybe, less Urban? Less historical strife? Less structured society?

[rkaiser]

Wow -- you are a passionate one oneoff. You must have been spitting a little when you wrote that one. LOL

Beliefs, facts, hypocracy. Don't do this and don't say that. Peddle this and lie about that.

My supporters...LOL

Thanks for the vote of confidence bud, however I am not out after a bunch of followers. Cargill and Monsanto will look after that when the next consumer decides. Then they will suck you in again... And despite your desperate attempt to sound like you have no choice... You have a choice my friend. And you choose to attack any and all who do not agree with your ---- what did good old ado call it --- dogmatic lie that you are doing what you do to save the human population from starvation.

Are you scared oneoff? scared that my posting a few articles will twist a few heads around on agriville?

I will admit to being a human oneoff. And every human on earth is a hypocrite to some extent. No use throwing that word back in your direction however, as you are beyond that simple human notion and have the "facts" (love the word) to prove it.

[rkaiser]

Exactly wd9.

Better get googlin little buddy, its almost bed time.

[oneoff]

A little bit of information can be extremely dangerous.
If you were content to stay in your cocoon that would be one thing.

But you are out to convince every customer that you know exactly what you are talking about.
That deserves to be challenged; because you are unfortunately gaining much support from new persons who suck in the outright propaganda and lies that you often peddle as fact. You do have a hard core of supporters.

It is one thing to be careful, suspicious and seek all sides of a story. Can you ever handle a couple of apparently differing bits of data at the same time?

[rkaiser]

Daw gon er one off --- you took the words right out of my mouth.

Funny how we often think and then write about our own deep egoic thoughts and challenges.

I accept your words oneoff and hope you heed them as you go on convincing people of your knowledge.

Have a great Sunday oneoff

[ado089]

Kaiser, none of us are defending a
specific company or product so I really
wish you would get off the kick that we
are some sort of agents for Monsanto.
That is getting really old and only
serves as a distraction from the
discussion at hand. Secondly I don't
give a shit about spending big $ on
those products so long as the
appropriate return on investment is
made, that's business so making that
talking point a non starter as well.

As for keeping an open mind to new
information...It is abundantly obvious
that we are reading all of these
"studies" in great detail. Unfortunately
there is no pre requisite for basic
statistics, experimental design or
scientific process to use Google. This
results in well intentioned consumers
being duped by special interest groups
such as Rodale and the OTA under the
guise of science. Regardless of the fact
the most basic analysis of these studies
quickly raise questions of sample size,
checks, methodology and most shockingly
the conclusions. With that said there is
some shoty science that has come from
the other side but I'll gladly call them
out too.

The other thing I find funny, or maybe
sad, is that none of us conventional
farmers are out saying don't produce or
purchase organics/non GMO. No we are
simply asking that you stop slandering
what the rest of us safely, sustainably
and proudly do.

A quick note on fertilizer. When we
fertilize we are not directly
fertilizing the crop in most cases, we
are feeding the microbes which inturn
mineralize those nutrient so the crop
can use it. Most importantly contrary to
popular belief the biggest threat to
humanity is not GMO's, climate change,
pipelines or corporations its soil
degradation and erosion. I'm sorry but a
plow down crops every couple of years
and a shit load of tillage may satisfy
Nitrogen needs but does nothing to
replace the removal of the other 3 macro
nutrient never mind micros and only
accelerates erosion.