New GM debate in UK

[ado089]

He thinks that since some of us have a
garden so we can have FRESH produce and
maybe because we are a bit frugal we
don't trust our product. Well kaiser my
garden gets sprayed with roundup, some
of it gets others but in a confined area
drift isn't worth it, I fry my potatoes
in canola oil, eat garlic bread made
from Canadian wheat beside a
ractopomine fed chunk of steak. Food is
the last thing in my life that will kill
me.

[grassfarmer]

How do you figure that CharlieP? The fossil fuel
model of seeding crops every year, the tillage, the
seeding, the fertilizer, the agro chemicals, the
swathing, harvesting, the trucking, the processing is
more sustainable than my model of beef production
how?
We can run the cattle on permanent forage acres that
can't be cropped with very minimal fossil fuel being
needed to harvest and distribute some winter feed
and for the ride to the butcher.

True enough the slaughter process is not one most
beef consumers want to see but do you think the
image of a farmer in his bio-hazard suit adding
product from containers with skull and crossbones on
them to the sprayer before he sprays the grain and
pulse crops they are expected to eat would encourage
them to be vegetarians?

[charliep]

Just making the point that all is not pretty in agriculture. I don't worry about the food I eat but I make choices including reducing my meat consumption.

I found how interesting how you took ianben on when he commented that certain breeds and blood lines may be more suseptible to BSE - a sensitive issue you seem to want to manage. Perhaps my message to consumers is how food is prepared and what is added to it (sugar, salt, etc) is far more damaging to their health than anything that happens on the farm. To highlight what ianben said again, we are all living healthier and longer with the big bulge of us baby boomers impact on the medical system something that will be faced in the next 30 years.

[ado089]

Another interesting tidbit, cancer
incidence peaked in 1991 and have been
trending down since, US numbers.
Coincidently that correlates with the
release of gm crops since we like
drawing wild conclusions on here.

[charliep]

For what it is worth, I have lots of conversations with urban consumers about agriculture practices and the impact on their food. Never argue with them - just listen and provide information when asked. I to the best of my ability highlight what the practices are, why they are done and the safety precautions that are taken. I also highlight they have choices and what the alternatives are to meet their individual concerns. Consumer trust in their food is something I never take for granted.

[grassfarmer]

Not a sensitive issue that I want to manage Charlie - I
rather hoped if I encouraged ianben to do some
research he would realise the most obvious of flaws
behind his thinking on his AI/bloodlines/BSE theory.

Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the dairy
industry in the UK would know that the leading sires
used through AI in the 1980s and 90s were American
and Canadian Holsteins. So how does that fit with the
genetic link theory?

[ianben]

I did read somewhere that 7 of the 10 most used
AI dairy bulls had the gene which, some sort Y
chromosome if I remember correctly, which
meant they were more susceptible to BSE.
If I had more time I might take the trouble to
google it and find the proof.
It does not matter where the bull came from.
It would not have been a problem if we not done
all the things with meat and bone meal which
exposed them to the prions and was only done in
the UK.
AI did not cause BSE and what I was trying to get
across was that a small number of companies
globally suppling seed, building tractors or
suppling semen for our cattle does carry more
risk.

[ianben]

Found this at
http://www.cjd.ed.ac.uk/research.html

To 31st December 2011, 176 cases of definite or
probable vCJD had been identified in the UK (122
definite and 54 probable who did not undergo
post mortem). All 176 cases have died. The
clinical,
neuropathological and epidemiological features
of the cases of vCJD are remarkably uniform and
consistent with previous descriptions. Risk
factors for the development of vCJD include age,
residence in the UK and methionine
homozygosity at codon 129 of the prion protein
gene - all 159
clinically affected definite and probable cases of
vCJD with available genetic analysis have been
methionine homozygotes. Analysis of vCJD
diagnoses and deaths from January 1994 to
December
2011 indicates that a peak has passed. While this
is an encouraging finding, the incidence of vCJD
may increase again, particularly if different
genetic subgroups with longer incubation
periods exist.
The identification of an individual of the PRNP-
129 MV genotype as a possible case of vCJD and,
in a
separate case, disease-related prion protein in
the spleen of a clinically unaffected blood
recipient
(reported in 2004) is consistent with such a
hypothesis. These cases, along with the report of
the
prevalence of abnormal prion protein in the large
study of appendix and tonsil tissues (two of the
positive specimens from VV individuals) suggests
the possibility of a greater number of preclinical
or
subclinical cases in the population than might be
indicated by the present numbers of confirmed
clinical cases.

A bit complicated for me but think that says a
genetic link.

[grassfarmer]

What has a study of vCJD cases in humans got to do
with certain AI bulls allegedly being genetically
responsible for BSE cases in dairy cows?

[ianben]

Grassfarmer
Like Charlie I am struggling to understand why
you see no genetic link.
How do you explain why some cows got BSE and
others did not on the same farm with the same
diet?
Angelina Jolie just had her breasts removed
cause she has susceptible genes to breast
cancer.
I am not blaming an AI bull for that but showing
genetic links and the belief people must have in
them.
What would your reaction be if she was your
wife(you should be so lucky) daughter?

[grassfarmer]

Point is you have no proof, no science behind your
statements. First it was AI then it wasn't, then it was 7
out of the 10 most popular bulls which you
can't/won't name any of.
As long as you support Monsanto and the GMO cause
on this forum perceptions are real and the facts are
negotiable. Heaven forbid anyone posting opposing
views without having extensive peer reviewed science
to back their claims.

[wd9]

Thing is grassfarmer, then that's all it
makes it, an opposing view. An opinion.
An 'I think its this way' statement.

Not much value in those.

[ado089]

Grassfarmer, I think a distinction can be made between ianben proposing the hypothesis that there could be a genetic link to BSE susceptibility and the likes of Randy inventing a problem and then assigning blame for it. BSE was/is a real problem that dealt a heavy blow to beef industries in several countries, unfortunately not enough is known about it to come up with anything more than token best practice management.

The dribble that gets spouted surrounding the organic debate first of all isn't being presented as a hypothesis, despite there being no evidence or much more plausible causes such as in obesity, it's being presented as fact to the ignorant masses in order to market at product.

It's one thing to make an educated guess, it's a whole other to sell your opinion as fact so that you can advance your ambitions.

[rkaiser]

Now I am inventing a problem ado?

All problems are manifestations of the mind.

What did I manifest now?

We know what you and your pals at Monsanto are manifesting every day. Problems to some and money making glory to people like yourself. Facts and all.

[wd9]

problems are a manifestation of the mind?

This keeps getting better with every
post!