Its not about marketing

[rkaiser]

Thanks wd. No argument to offer. Wanna do some homework on beef for me?

[pourfarmer]

furrow, at least we know the affects of
'burning fuel' as opposed the unknown
affects associated with glyosphate...

[charliep]

We also know the impact of high tillage on soil structure and organic matter. If you are even a somewhat/luke warm believer in climate change, you will have an opinion on societies fuel consumption and impact on future generations.

I am always interested and confused by everyones perception of risk and the fact fear of the unknown trumps risks we understand and live with every day.

Sorry to interupt. Carry on.

[ado089]

Iron is the most toxic element the thin
soil prairies has ever seen. In my vr
prescriptions tillage erosion has become
the key driver for zone establishment.
Not only does good soil move off certain
areas, but eventually poor sub soil
will start to cover highly productive
topsoil. There are several areas of the
world that routinely have to move good
soil back up hill, I don't know about
you but that is daughnting task even on
my relatively small acreage.

[pourfarmer]

Tillage done correctly has very little negative impact
on soil structure, its when guys disk sandy loam
relentlessly or excessively work ground that is already
black. A organic farmer realizes tillage is not fit for
every piece of land, thats where crop rotation comes
into play. For example I have a quarter with a sand
ridge right through it, I tried to farm it both
organically and conventionally with little success
unless fert rates were increased significantly ($$),
roll it into alfalfa hay production and that land is
netting more $/ac now then it could even farmed
conventionally. I have soil tests that show this land
thrives in forage production.

I also beg to differ regarding fuel use in organic
farming, in my area where zero till doesnt work for
everyone fuel costs are significant for both the organic
and conventional farmer. I am curious as to what these
new fancy sp sprayers burn per ac?

Organic production isn't the perfect answer I am well
aware of that but to me its the better alternative right
now, dump 100's gallons of chemical with unknown long
term affects into the soil or more co2 into the air
(debatable imho). Maybe GMO and conventional crops could
be used for cleaner fuel?

[TOM4CWB]

Pourfarmer,

Just did 2000ac on 100gal. .05gal/ac.

No till seeding is 20ac/hr @ 12gal/hr including loading
time. .8gal/ac for seeding/ crop tending.

I plowed some grass sod down a few years back with a
flip over plow. 2 gal/ac isn't had to burn up. 5 bottom
flip over made a 225hp tractor work... then not done...
discing 2 times... harrowing... cost was over $50/ac
for breaking. 1 pass of glyphosate and seed. cost is
$10/ac... and the soil stays rooted.

Climate change would be 5 times worse... if no zero till
in western Canada. We will figure out better ways of
controling weeds... WITHOUT tillage. Kill the
germinations of weeds...would be the #1 choice.

Cheers!

[wd9]

I sprayed grassland with 600 gr/ac
glyphosate in the morning and seeded with
disc no till in the afternoon. 30 year
old forum software or i would show you
beautiful oats growing thru the brown
completely undisturbed grass.

Now THAT'S organic farming.

[wd9]

Its a complex system Kaiser, recent
reports of pork the same as the chicken.
Its every where.

In your beef too? Have you tested for
MSRA?

[pourfarmer]

I've seen 1 (or 2?) pass roundup and zero till canola
into old hay stand in our area and it amounted to
basically nothing... next year he was out there with a
wishek and finishing disk... twice the crop... again in
OUR area. To say zero till works everywhere is like
saying organic farming will work everywhere... different
areas call for different land management.

I've always wanted to try a flip over plow.. for now will
settle on a wishek: 240hp pulling 14ft wishek burns under
1.5gal more if soft ground where disk sinks but still
think under 2. How deep do those rollover plows cut?

[TOM4CWB]

pour,

There must be a lot of tricks to them.

It is 3ph... not as simple or as easy as it looks!

I was not impressed... we had fescue sod and figured it
to be the best way... WRONG!

Many ways to get a crop going... WATER after
seeding... a good seed bed... and no competition to
smother the small plants : are the keys to making this
work! Cross seeding helps lots of times... not going
too deep.

[oneoff]

Everyone is great at bringing farming practices down to personal experience on an their relatively infinitesmal level.

Try to bring the big picture of 9 billion into focus; or the obvious repercussions of realeasing stored CO2 from fosssil fuels; or chemistry and biology experiments that were dreamed of by only a handful 50 years ago....and no one knows where to wade in with their theories and ideas.

So most default back to beliefs and the rationalizations that their methods have been personally successful and the world's problems can't be much bigger than what those farmers have faced.

And maybe the "agricltural industry" is happy to fill fill that vacuum or void. They fill the papers with press releases; and steer their financial agenda through stategic lobbying; and all the Public Relations tricks and advertising that money can buy.

And no two (or especially three) farmers have been able to agree to stick together for their mutual benefit.

Just thinking.

[wd9]

Ok pourfarmer, i'll figure out how to
post a pic on this archaic sight.