Agriville forecasts of the end of the world have been greatly exaggerated

[AlbertaFarmer5]

cotton, I think your last line should be our goal. Perhaps unattainable, but if we did everything with that in mind, instead of with full employment as the goal, we would be in a much better situation today.

And as you say. One country alone running on borrowed money has a big problem. But it is every country. Like the saying, if I own the bank $1000 and I can't pay them, I have a problem, if I owe them $10,000,000 and I can't pay, they have a problem.

[farmaholic]

You bring up a point that makes my "simple" mind unable to figure out why people think "economies" have to grow forever, every year, or never suffer a setback. First of all at what pace? We all know the quicker the pace the more growth. It just can't keep ballooning for ever, and when its expected to and conditions aren't actually conducive to growth... it gets "forced"

The least we should be hoping for is stagnation.


WTF is the difference if you earn $20/hr and a beer costs $5.00 or you earn $30/hr and that same beer costs you $7.50? Why does everything always have to go up? So lets drop all wages to $10/hr and pay $2.50 for that beer. What keeps driving things up?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Farmaholic. I look at most offices and the answer to that question is crystal clear. IF one can take a sabatical, or long holidays and the world doesn't stop revolving, then that answers itself. I even look at myself, as a small/medium sized farmer, and realize that a BTO could cover my ground in a fraction of the time and wonder if I am not part of that same crowd that I am lamenting?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

farmaholic, regarding growth. We have this ridiculous idea that our success can only be measured by growth and employment. When it should be measured by productivity. And productivity should lead to deflation. Which should lead to an increased standard of living as products and services get more affordable over time. Which is what happened throughout the most of the 1800's thanks to the industrial revolution. Measuring success by growth is ludicrous. Exponential growth is mathematically impossible except for a very short time period. Did we really think China could grow at 10% growth for ever, look at an exponential growth curve for 10%, see how sustainable that is? The more natural dips, and shrinkage we have, the longer the game can go on. We will reach the limits of growth, earth is finite. I don't know when or how. But it is mathematically impossible to avoid.

[cottonpicken]

Well that sort of ties in with the frActional reserve banking world. It's hard to use as few as words as possible to describe complicated things.

When a bank takes in ten dollars it's allowed to lend out ruffly nine. This all set up around the bassel treaties which i wont go into but they where all sort of ignored anyway.

The remaining dollar is called the tier one capital reserve.

So you maybe need to pause and think about this.

So the bank lends out nine. Where does that go?maybe pays a wage to build a house?where does that wage go?back to the bank.

What if the government borrows to pay a wage?wage goes into the bank

See the complexity. Lots of things i still dont have my arms around.

Now apply international trade with balance of trade math.

Countries are desperate to keep positive trade. The money hits the banking system and gets leveraged up. Best example of this is japan. That's how they where always able to fund themselves. But they are completly ****ed fiscally.

Now through in carry trade. Very very large web.

[farmaholic]

Quote from one of my previous posts in another thread.

I am the furthest thing from religious but maybe its time to "cleanse the temple" get rid of "private" central banking, tell the Fed Reserve to **** themselves and create some sort of "people's bank". But I honestly have no idea what I'm talking about

[biglentil]

The world ending no it will be here many many millenia. The math does not lie exponential growth of population, debt, demand up against the limits of finite planet and at some point something has to give. You can ignore a problem if you like but the consequences will not ignore you.

[Rareearth]

in every war, every trade, everything, there is a winner and a loser.

If everything is in the dumpster, doom and gloom,countries, economies, society who ? Where? And why will these winners be ?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

do you believe that all of our collective knowledge, infrastructure and resources will be destroyed just because of economic collapse, none of those will be available again on the other side?

[farmaholic]

Me? No, just a reset. But if you want to label winners and losers, ya I think the prudent won't be rewarded and those that lived beyond their means...? maybe not penalized but not accountable or responsible for themselves either, I guess if you think that's a winner...

I had a talk with my friend the other day, I said remember the days when it was a goal for a "married couple" to get to Hawaii once in their lifetime? Now its yearly, sometimes more, and a "family vacation". And the difference is, some of this is done on borrowed money. So let's wipe the slate clean...

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Farm aholic, you are arguing that the ability to go to Hawaii multiple times is a bad thing. I am arguing that the ability to go to Hawaii indicates that we have the resources the time and the ability to do so and that is a good thing. the fact that it's done with borrowed money just indicates that the value of that money is incorrect.humanity is just busy meeting our needs fulfilling our luxuries,and doing it within a flawed system it apparently does not have enough currency in the credit ledger we put it in the debit. but either way the resources are there for taking advantage of it and getting things done.would I rather that I could afford to go to Hawaii multiple times per year as a productive member of society and the civil servant who doesn't produce anything wouldn't be able to, of course.

I also think that after an economic reset that will more likely be the case.

[farmaholic]

Not arguing with the logic of work hard play hard. Its when its done and people walk away from debt or their responsibilities that inhave trouble with. Everyone wants to be on equal footing without doing anything or earning that luxury.

[sumdumguy]

Just returned from Las Vegas. Prices in US much the same as here, except of course for gas, but now cost of living is 33% cheaper in Canada. Governments have pumped up the freebie social programs for sure with several overlapping hand-outs. Now we intend to open the door to lots of new immigrants. One thing that I hope is that Justin surveys common folk before getting in to deep. The country's leader needs to listen to the electorate or he'll experience the same fate as the Conservatives. The only thing was their lips were tight-real tight.

[perfecho]

The people I know that are leaving for the winter, going to Hawaii are not doing it on borrowed money....they did well....we were smart enough to be born in a place with great opportunity and wealth....unfortunately we used up most of it for us and were not too concerned about the future or environment...now that will come into play! But saying that, I am not too concerned about my kids...think they will do ok...and they don't expect as much as we did and I see that they don't waste as much as we did....

[oneoff]

It's been asked earlier that we stop and think.

Perhaps the fact that with no thought or intention to do anything about population growth restrictions (read that extra mouths where the first one can come anytime; and after that it typically takes about 9 months) and the fact that so little thought is given to the implication of extra people on climate change; resource use; poverty and every other challenge that becomes more difficult to handle as time progresses.

Contemplate if there were half the souls present (at any given time... now or preferably in the future); there would be twice as much to go around (with absolutely no changes required).

In fact it seems no one is willing to let that scenario enter their "head".