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No Discrimination in "Buy Back" System

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    No Discrimination in "Buy Back" System

    Parsley, Parsley, Parsley. The buy back as it is referred to, is not discriminatory, although the CWB does engage in what is referred to as price discrimination to its customers.

    The objective of the CWB is to prevent you and me from competing with each other and driving down the price. Licenses are granted when that criterion is met and there is no charge for that license.

    The buyback is in fact two distinct transactions. The first transaction is simple. The farmer sells his grain to the CWB through the various options provided. All producers who sell through the CWB are treated similarly. Many producers have been encouraged by the numerous producer pricing options being offered and these offerings continue to expand and evolve.

    The second transaction is where the individual buys grain from the CWB. This appears complicated but is in fact the same process any customer of the CWB would be exposed to. Anyone can purchase grain from the CWB, including producers of that grain. However, it is rare for a customer of the CWB to buy grain on spec in order to compete for sales with the CWB as is typically the case for individual producers contemplating a buyback. This is quite apparent to anyone purchasing grain from the CWB since those transactions typically represent premium values. For this reason the majority of sales by the CWB are to end users.

    These two simple transactions which happen thousands of times per day, and when they are matched up through a single individual can be deemed to be the "buyback".

    I will say again, there is no discrimination in the buyback. All producers have the same options available to them to sell through the CWB. Any customer can buy grain from the CWB. Having said that, there is a system in place which prices grain based on the country where the grain will be delivered. Here there is discrimination and perhaps that is what Parsley is alluding to!

    Different markets are priced differently on any given day reflecting the value of the grain in that market. This is a situation that would not exist to the same degree in an open market. Japan would buy their grain at the same values as Korea in a market where producers were competing against producers for that sale.

    Whether you call it "the monopoly" (a misnomer), "single desk selling", or "orderly marketing" the concept is the same. Wheat and Barley from Western Canada commands a premium. Grain grown in Western Canada and marketed collectively through the CWB does not compete with itself to drive prices down.

    Never has that been so powerfully demonstrated as in the current marketing year. While farmers in the US were competing for sales after harvest prices remained low. When that grain was largely sold and the predominant marketer of wheat and durum with remaining stocks was the CWB,... prices rose dramatically! The CWB was able to sell a significant percentage of our grain at those higher values. This is reflected in the two dollar per bushel (or more) premium that the CWB earned on the total years sales, compared to our US neighbors. The CWB has thereby generated, through collective marketing, additional profits of about 1.5 Billion dollars for Western Canadian producers.

    Examples of the success of collective action abound. Even Mayo Schmidt sees the advantage of collective action, now managing what used to be four separate grain companies. There have been statements made that in the absence of the CWB Viterra will make more money. My guess is that "extra" money will come out of farmers pockets.

    A representative from a crop input supplier said that this is a good time for the agriculture industry. When you consider that every single dollar that comes into this industry comes through the farmers’ hands, the farmer becomes a major impediment for “the industry”. After all the only way they can get their share of the pie is to take it from the farmers. If you were "the industry" how would you remove this farmer impediment? Perhaps the first step would be to remove the farmers’ ability to act collectively.

    All of those who post on this website whose objective is to eliminate the CWB and the farmers’ ability to act collectively are playing into the hands of "the industry". If those people actually think that as individuals that they are part of "the industry", they have a serious identity crisis.

    #2
    Counting your chickens before they're hatched now aren't you Rod?

    There are still three months to go in the marketing year.

    And at this point the 300 elevator DTN cash price index which can be found here

    http://www.mgex.com/history/historical_new.cfm

    is showing that the simple average price for hard red spring so far is coming in at <b>$10.33</b> USD per bushel. On the other hand if I average out your Pro across the four regions you're only promising <b>$9.10</b> CAD.

    You have some serious catching up to do by the end of the year if you want to beat just the simple average.

    And while we're comparing here the American farmer has had 97 opportunities since Nov 29 to get a better price than your Pro. And they have had 89 chances to sell at better than $10 USD per bushel.

    Just this past week the CWB cost me $8000 on my last 100 tonnes of winter wheat even though I was able to get pretty much the same as the PRO and fixed price contracts from the non board feed market. You can read the details here.

    http://agriville.com/cgi-bin/forums/viewThread.cgi?1208277027

    You see Rod competition is not a one way street it, goes both ways it disciplines both buyers and sellers. And right now because you don't have to compete for my grain there is nobody to keep you honest and it is costing my farm big time.

    Discrimination, you want to talk about discrimination? You've got the biggest discrimination racket going on in Canada today with this single desk boogie woogie.

    Comment


      #3
      Vader,

      The very fact that the CWB fails to provide a daily cash pricing system...

      As well the CWB does not provide for producer direct export sales delivery contracts... that would set aside delivery risk created by the Producer Direct Sales that is not being planned for ahead of time in the present delivery system... proves this present system does nothing close to your presentation here. When #1 Milling grade wheat has a lower buy-back than feed wheat... Vader your claims are frankly based on fiction.

      And then there is your Organic $3.32/t cost export license... that does not conform in any way to what you have presented here.

      THis has NOTHING to do with the growers sales skills... and everything to do with the CWB's lack of accountability to provide a viable daily pricing system... that clearly and transparently presents premium prices to 'designated area' grain growers day in and day out.

      If the CWB were to offer us such a pricing option... for uncommitted inventories of our wheat an barley... what would we have to complain about?

      SHOW us the money VADER... in a market that pays premium prices... day after day... month after month... all year long just like Canola does... higher the majority of the time... more than US growers get... then you would be able to make the claim that there is "NO DISCRIMINATION IN "BUY BACK" SYSTEM.

      We are waiting Vader... for you to deliver!

      Comment


        #4
        Rod-Vader said, <blockquote>"All of those who post on this website whose objective is to eliminate the CWB and the farmers’ ability to act collectively..." </blockquote>

        Rod, how exactly does me selling my own grain prevent you from acting "collectively" with others?

        Comment


          #5
          Tom said “The very fact that the CWB fails to provide a daily cash pricing system”

          If they did provide daily cash prices, it would be pretty obvious if we were getting a premium over geographically nearby non-designated area prices, maybe a little too obvious, which might be why we don’t have a CWB daily cash pricing system offered to us.

          Comment


            #6
            FarmRanger

            The CWB does provide daily cash prices (based on US prices minus the $5/tonne basis risk deduction). Agree the process is flawed but even based on the information the CWB provides, the average DPC to date has been above the PRO. The above CWB numbers would support what fransisco has highlighted.
            http://www.cwb.ca/public/en/farmers/producer/historical/pdf/2007-08/0708dpccharts.pdf

            Using the CWB own information, I would have trouble demonstating the $2/bu premium the CWB supposed gets.

            I won't ask Vader directly (won't get an answer) but would be extremely interested in where the information in determining the CWB payment/price advantage comes from. Is it based on public information or the internal generated prices provided the B of D? If the numbers are internally generated, what verification process does the B of D use to verify their accuracy?

            Perhaps the most interesting thing is the clear differentiation of a farm manager as a producer/deliverer of grain and as a marketer (someone who identifies customers and does their best to sell at a profit). Farmers have the ability to do this for other crops (including feed barley) but are not able to do it for wheat or malt barley.

            Comment


              #7
              Vader,

              You want to discuss discriminatory buyback prices.

              The real issue I want to discuss is

              discriminatory licensing practices.



              Your issue wants to discuss dollars.

              My biggest issue is about the CWB's lack of principles.


              This is what the issue is about:

              In Canada, we have aa constitution.

              It is in place so that Canadians are able to enjoy some semblance of fairness.

              The CWB lacks fairness.

              The CWB has the sole responsibility to license any wheat and barley in Canada that is being transported interprovincially, OR exported..

              ONLY the CWB can perform this function, unless of course, for example, the Minister gives an order to the CWB to hand over this function to another body like Trade and Commerce for example.


              The CWB has taken to backroom notions to give export and interprovincial licenses to some folks, but not to others.

              That is what discriminatory licensing means.

              Playing favourites.

              It means looking at one group of people and saying "Yup, you can have a license", while looking at another and saying "Nope".

              The CWB does not trust in Western farmers, so they deny every license application they recieve from a Westerner.

              Period.

              It would not surprise me for one moment, if the CWB were to wake up one morning and aslo deny all export licenses to Ontario organic producers, once they had peeped at the names of the growers' buyers.

              The CWB are able to deny licenses, and do just that.

              In 1980, the Government had to give a Ministerial order to the CWB, to issue export licenses to Ontario for 20,000 tonnes of Eastern barley.

              Did they do it?

              You bet, when the Minister ordered them.

              The CWB, as we speak, refuses to grant licenses to Westerners.


              Period.


              Some CWB gooney made the decision in the back room one Saturday night, I presume.

              As well, up until 1998, the Board agency licensing costs were paid for entirely by the Government of the day, but here agian, some louts made a policy decision, in some back room in Winnipeg, and as a result now farmers pay lfor icensing, for that stupidity, that arrogance, that ungenerosity of duty to farmers, that I find so offensive.

              Governments can squash sales, if they decide to do so. And they do.

              In 1980, the Government of Canada place an embargo on grain sales to Russia. They did pay $80 Million dollars into the CWB pooling accounts to offset their political decision, and also compensated the Ontario Marketing Board accounts at the same time.Did they stop the sale of cars, though?

              So, unfortunatley, farmers are subject to the political and economic swings of Government.

              And that is all the CWB truly is...a wing of Government with a groupie bunch of seemingly wannna-be-politicians making policy decisions that are fraught with discriminatory consequences.

              They must pluck daisies.

              "I like feed mills"

              I hate Western conventional farmers."

              "I love kamut growers.

              They seem to behave as if they have decided to nonchalantly apply a rumoured String Theory to Western Grain Marketing.

              The problem is that most likely none of them have ever even heard of Ed Witton.

              Maybe tommorow it will be:

              "I hate Baptists"

              And it won't matter if the Baptist lives in Alberta or Ontario, they will be denied a CWB license.

              And all Just because some irriconji in the Marketing Department took a notion.

              Parsley


              I am not concerned if the CWB markets volunteered grain to Latvia.

              The issue is, was and always will be:

              licensing.

              licensing


              licensing










              The CWB

              Comment


                #8
                I hope it rains so that us farmers have some time to dump some compost.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yes indeed Hopper we got some much needed moisture in the form of snow.

                  Good post Vader, I agree with you

                  Maybe if you give Parsley a licence to export her grain to Latvia - she'll give this site a rest.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I grow 12 different crops all are open market crops except for Durum.

                    NONE I REPEAT NONE of the open market crops are "self marketed". I am simply TAKING A PRICE FROM COMPANY A, B OR C.
                    These companies then turn around increase the price handsomely for themselves and market to the endusers.

                    If you think you are Marketing Yourself when you sell your lentils to Pulse plant A, B or C , You are sadly mistaken.
                    By the way A, B or C are all the same price,funny how that happens.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Maybe all farmers should have the opportunity of no cost export licenses for marketing their own grain on either on individual truck basis or containers (similar Australia).

                      I reread page 43 of the annual report again to note the targeted benefit and the actual results in the CWB performance - not any of the dollars that vader is talking about and still subject to question about process. Malt barley benefit of $13.45/tonne when payments were under both CWB and domestic feed markets is still a mystery.

                      I then looked specifically at the asterick/footnote and what is specifically referred to. The CWB had planned on making $65 mln from what is called "Contribution from other revenue sources" and they actually lost $48.7 mln. I assume this is over and above the losses on the producer pricing options. Is in the annual report so I assume is important. How does this relate to the single desk benefit that is discussed and the CWB risk management strategy?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Pulse plant A, B, and C have to compete with each other, anyone consistently offering a lower price won't get supply. The CWB has no such restrictions.

                        Thanks for that response Charlie, (glad to have you back). Unfortunately for most of us who couldn't get the DPC, we are stuck in the pool which can't even get the simple average price.

                        If we all had free access to a daily price contract through the CWB, it would be very easy to compare that price to the free market just to the south of us. Any price premium/discount would become instantly apparant if it couldn't be hidden in a year long pooled price.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Will note the US average price process. Farmers can compare this to what the CWB has done in the past using average returns from the annual report.

                          See table 18, 19 and 20.
                          http://www.cwb.ca/public/en/farmers/producer/historical/pdf/2007-08/0708dpccharts.pdf

                          A couple of footnotes to these tables/making the comparison.

                          The US crop year is June to May and weighted average/simple average prices (you have to read the footnotes) are based on this. The Canadian crop year is August to July and the CWB is October to September in most years. You would have to take out the June to September period begginning of the US crop year and bring in the June to Sept period of the next crop year to be comparable.

                          You also have to adjust for the US greenback/loonie - the loonie hasn't always been on par with the US.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Ahhh yes. The "simple" average price.

                            So on 15 million tonnes of wheat, to get the "simple" average price the CWB would have to market just 1,510,027 bushels per day, including weekends and holidays. Slightly more if people take time off for Christmas and Easter etc. Now no matter what the price over the last year whether it was $5.00 or $25.00 per bushel you have to find those buyers willing to buy your "simple" average daily amount of grain.

                            No problem in a "simple" world that some people live in............

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Should be CWB pooling year is October to September. Sorry.

                              Comment

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