maybe some balance

[jensend]

the problems are exacerbated because one regulation is stacked on another to try to address the imbalance resulting from the first regulation. how much further can we go before the system is so screwed that it collapses? my guess is not much longer. the whole economy is due for a realignment.

[Fransisco]

"the problems are exacerbated because one regulation is stacked on another to try to address the imbalance resulting from the first regulation."

You're bang on with this one as well.

[jensend]

chillax tom. the reason i always pick on crop insurance is because the premiums are so heavily subsidized. if farmers were paying the whole premium for an actuarially sound program maybe they would realize how risky their businesses are. if you're paying 100g how much is the taxpayer picking up?

[parsley]

...and no, jensend,fyi, no CI at all here, zippo, so no taxpayers money spent.

He who pays has to get some say.


That's why the Government has say over any program they are legislatviely responsible for.

Parsley

[jensend]

parsley: and no, jensend,fyi, no CI at all here, zippo, so no taxpayers money spent.

He who pays has to get some say.



exactly.

[parsley]

..and that's also why a gov't responsible for a contingency fund, or gov't guarantees must also have some say.

The problem with both CI, and with the above, is that the first line recipients are the employees/appointees/ etc. with political ramifications at the front instead of farmers' needs.

Farmers create enuff wealth to sponsor their own programs if they are run right. ie Ontario Teachers' Pension Fund.

Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Jensend,

Suppose your house burns down!

I end up subsidising your problem for the rest of my life!

Along with most everyone else!

How is this in reality any different than Crop Insurance?

We are still repaying the 2002 drought insurance... and our premiums are still rising in 2008... the premiums we pay are now over twice what they were in 2002... with 5 years without a claim!

Did you know AB Production Insurance raises premiums far higher than private insurance providers in the same type of risk... like hail insurance for instance???

If you think the 50% we repay on any payout is 'cheap' think again!

Imagine if that type of premium were applied to regular hail insurance!

[jensend]

tom if you and i use the same insurance company and the pool is actuarially sound the pool of premiums will satisfy the claims. nobody outside of the insured parties is paying in. not so with crop insurance. we all get subsidized to some extent whether it's crop insurance, brand inspections, whatever. just don't deny it and then accept the benefit. you really set yourself up for these things. if you're not paying the full shot somebody elose is helping you out. they are subsidizing you.

[TOM4CWB]

Jensend,

'if you're not paying the full shot somebody else is helping you out. they are subsidizing you.'

The purpose behind insurance... is to pool risk... and in all commercial insurance... the 'pool' does EXACTLY as you say... it subsidises you... if you have an insurable loss!

If a hurricane or major disaster happens... all insurance rates go up... on all our policies... we subsidise the folks who had the disaster somewhere else globally!

If your $400,000 house burns down... and the premium costs $1,000/yr... when you insure your rebuilt house... the rates you pay don't even increase!

Many auto policies allow a couple of claims... before rates rise!

IF everyone was forced to take crop insurance (like we are forced to take auto insurance)... the rates would decrease... then it would be more affordable for the rest of us on a commercial basis!

Hail insurance has both systems... private and public.

You have the choice to pool your own money... and not take Production Insurance. If that is your choice... so be it... don't complain that I am getting unfairly subsidised... when WTO and trade agreements confirm the CDN Production Insurance system is trade neutral! If Production Insurance is such a good deal... why do you self insure?

I am very conservative... and want to sleep at night... and not worry as much about the weather... so I buy Production Insurance!

A More plentyful food supply is the result... which is a perfectly acceptable goal for our gov.'s to encourage...

SO why exactly are you offended?

[jensend]

more amused than offended.

[parsley]

Wanted: Logic-alignment specialist to work one on one with Alberta client. Must be fully informed about crop insurance programs. Client very likeable, but set in ways.

Apply to Parsley before August 1, 2008

[bduke]

A Logic-alignment physcology analysis..(LAPS)for an Albertan?...LOL

How about a Gov't resourse allocation prioritized extraneous spending (G****S) study for Parsley and Jensend?

It is easy to pick out one program and diss it ideologically, however....would you also refuse PFRA programs, OAP, medicare..etc.?

Alot of wealth leaves the prairies in many taxes and royalties...A Fraser Institute study about 20 years ago concluded the west to east transfer was huge then. I can't imagine the negative net now....Bill

[jensend]

i won't disagree with you bduke. i'm just saying if you're getting a subsidy you're getting a subsidy. with the mess the whole economy is in and the way things are structured food should probably be subsidized. i'll leave it there for reaction other than to say more subsidies would just further screw things up and farmers would be poorer.

[parsley]

Quebec has recieved the most benefits from agricultural subsidy programs' pie-cutting, and many of them are quietly, very quietly, not conveniently available for perusal.

Why would Western farmers encourage more pies, unless, of course, you simply like stirring ideas and rolling words.lol


Parsley

[bduke]

Jensend....are you bothered when European farmers sell their farms in their homelands and relocate to the prairies? They often increase their land bases from 10 to 15 times, purchase adequate to "state of the art" equipment, operate debt free....and easily outbid you and your neighbours for the land and equipment.

I sat on a SAGIT during the Tokyo WTO round. The deputy minisiter of International Trade was Sylvia Ostry...a very intelligent and perceptive woman. I recall during one of our dicussions i mentioned how we puritans seem to be lagging in the application of technology compared to Europe and the US. She responded.."absolutely, the synergies of science and subsidies in agriculture are unbelievably productive, and extremely difficult, if not impossible, to reverse."

I was,and still am, a proponent of free unfettered trade. However, the intransigence of Europe and the US to reduce their ag subsidies has left Canada,and Australia, lagging competitively "farmers to farmers."

Parsley....Quebec farmers are the largest benefactors of ag subsidies, and many programs are Provincial. Meanwhile, Quebec is the largest benefactor of Federal transfer payments.....dumb like a fox?...Bill