A good 'un

[freewheat]

Tweety. With sleight of hand. With sleight of hand.

[Hamloc]

Grassfarmer if I understand cap and trade correctly it targets industry and other large emitters by capping what they can emit and in theory encouraging lower emissions by charging for credits to emit. How does this lower the emissions of the average consumer with 2 or 3 cars and maybe an RV. Highways get busier every year. I would say enviro's go after industry because it is political suicide to go after the average consumer. They make us believe only industry will pay costs will be passed down and electricity, heat, fuel and food will all go up. As will the governments total tax revenue. Individual Canadians pay 42% of their income to taxes and 37% to housing, food and clothing and the government wants more, it is a very sad state of affairs.

[tweety]

It would seem grassfarmer has left the building.

[grassfarmer]

Yes, left to do some work tweety.
I'll tell you one thing - we are cycling and putting back more of the nutrients than any other type of agriculture.

[WiltonRanch]

Grass I do agree a closed loop grazing system like you are describing can replenish organic matter and nitrogen through use of legumes. A cow only uses 10% of what they eat and the rest goes out the back as fertilizer. The big if is getting that fertilizer distributed even enough but in the grand scheme I think proper rotational grazing could help with that. Only thing I have trouble with is mining phos potash and even calcium. Short term it won't be a problem but long term it could be if some nutrients aren't replaced. Sure growing deep rooted forages will bring up unavailable stuff from below but it's still mining. When Buffalo roamed they roamed all over the country. There was no such thing as 25 Buffalo to a quarter all summer. They practised high intensity short duration grazing with plenty of rest. When they and all other life died their bodies went back into the system. With beef those nutrients are exported out of the system. Albeit not to the degree of say growing a crop.
There is a place for crops and a place for beef production. The inefficiency of a cows ability to convert unpalatable to human feedstocks like crop residue and grass to beef is also her saving grace if used properly. Where else can you graze crop residue in the field. Maybe supplement a bit but still produce some beef while speeding up the nutrient cycling for the next crop. I know this won't apply to more than a mere fraction of crop farming in the whole scheme but for people like us in our conditions this is a reality. I hate the nattering back and forth but in an area of varying terrain and soil conditions it's the only way you can make a go of it.

[TOM4CWB]

Tweety,

N cycle includes N from thunderstorms in summer. Both Grass and Crop farmers reap this N... differs from year to year,,, depends on storm patterns.

[tweety]

Care to say how you are doing better then anyone else. Here to learn.

Tom, it amounts to almost nothing compared to what's being removed - and that's only nitrogen.

[tweety]

Wilton ranch, So how much carbon do you actually store then? Are you a source or a sink?

[WiltonRanch]

Tweety. I neither know nor care. All I know is the c:n ratio is like 50 or 70 to 1. So you need n in the soil to capture carbon. Carbon is plant material and roots. A healthy soil in my opinion has lots of om (carbon). Om holds more water, supplies crops with late season nutrients, and keeps tilth. I think zero tillage and proper grazing ie. not grazing the piss out of it, has done more to improve our soil health more than anything. We can talk in circles about carbon sequestration and hot gas but what it boils down to me joe farmer is keeping soils healthy and covered. Legumes and the such do much for soil health and nitrogen fertility. Do I think they replace all my n needs? Heck no. They help like maybe the 10 lbs of n deposited yearly by thunderstorms. Nothing replaces fertilizer when you expect anything more than static from the ecosystem.